Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from lawsuit

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Dids »

Shiftshock wrote:Hate to break the news to yall hatin azz niggaz. finesse don't care wat yall broke niggaz think. he got too much money now

dat boy gonna be livin good n blowin big :cheers:
Are you fucking 6?

We're not having this conversation for the benefit or Lord Finesse FFS.

Haters are people who knee jerk and say dumb shit without a reason. When Finesse exposes himself as a hypocritical asshat willing to take steps that are potentially damaging to the industry as a whole to grab a quick buck that's fine enough reason to dislike the guy.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by ardamus »

You know what, we should get Finesse on here to shut everybody up. A post lawsuit interview would be cool.......
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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by ardamus »

actually fuck that, i think i found what i was looking for. i was to bring up this law about copyright but this sounds like it was explained well.

http://lineout.thestranger.com/lineout/ ... on-dollars

You may have read that Mac Miller and Lord Finesse settled in December over the dispute of Mac's use of Lord Finesse's work. You may have also read everything from ridiculous YouTube comment section reasoning to Mac Miller’s own lawyer's press release. You may feel like one is better than the other, or that the spirit of hiphop is being perverted somehow, but there is a logical explanation for this, which stands outside of your spurious reasoning. Rest at ease.

Lord Finesse isn't owed 10 million dollars by rap’s cutest start up because he's decided to betray the roots of hiphop. US Copyright Law is actually pretty easy to follow and available to digest in many forms over at this website. In addition to the usual FAQ section, they’ve also got pamphlets covering a series of specific subjects, and a series of cartoons for explaining things like copyright infringement to school children. There's also the entire law just sitting there for you to read. I grant you that the sections on sound recordings are incredibly dated, referring to transferring sound via phonograph doesn’t even sound civilized, but the principles of the law do still apply.

It's easiest to first begin with the popular Mac Miller fan defense (no, not the gormless, air-headed defense about the honor of hiphop) which is stated reasonably as:

Lord Finesse never paid Oscar Peterson for his sample of "Dream of You" used on his track "Hip 2 Da Game" either, tho.

This is the first and best argument, which attempts to establish Miller's innocence and show that Lord Finesse is a greedy ’90s monster back from the dead, participating outside the lines of hiphop historical allowances. This argument is, however, wrong.

Here’s why:

Under chapter 3 section 301 of the copyright law of the good ol’ US of A, Oscar Peterson does hold copyright for his work published in 1971 until the year 2067. This does not mean it is not okay for Lord Finesse to have sampled his work in the 1995 single "Hip 2 Da Game" (which appeared on the Awakening album in 1996). Finesse may have simply credited and been given permission by Oscar Peterson to use the sample, the latter of which I doubt. The more likely possibility falls under what’s called a "derivative work" clause (Chapter 1 Section 103), which is defined by the Copyright Office as "A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications, which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship." That means that for Lord Finesse to take an Oscar Peterson record (Reunion Blues, so good), put it on a turntable, sample three seconds worth of vibraphone from the first five seconds of the track, and loop it, creates an entirely different work than Oscar Peterson’s "Dream Of You," which is called a derivative. Derivative works are copyrighted by their owners like all copyrighted works at the point of creation, no little symbol necessary. You don’t even need to file paperwork to hold copyright over something you've created.

But isn't Mac Miller just doing what Lord Finesse did? Isn't this what hiphop is?

In short, no. Mac Miller used well over a few seconds of the Lord Finesse beat. As a matter of fact, if you listen to "Kool Aid n Frozen Pizza" and "Hip 2 Da Game" side by side, he used the whole goddamn thing. This is a problem because once Lord Finesse created that beat (literally at the moment he created it) he owned the copyright to it. Whether or not Mac Miller made money off the K.I.D.S. mixtape at the time of release is inconsequential. Whether or not Mac Miller indeed credited Lord Finesse with the use of the beat is also inconsequential (I'll get to why in a bit). He would've had to have had permission in writing ahead of time to do so, and since he didn’t "sample" the beat, as is hiphop custom, he set his own song outside of the derivative clause.

Furthermore, there are four factors determining whether a copyright is being infringed upon or simply being made "fair use" of. From my personal favorite, Section 107, you may be doing it wrong, and subject to infringement suit if you haven't considered:

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

Yes, Mac Miller did use this tape, if not this song specifically to launch a commercial career, no he wasn’t teaching kids about Kool-Aid and frozen pizza.

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

Yes, the fact Mac Miller credited it to Lord Finesse when he laid it down showed that he knew it was copyrighted by him (the rest of us knew it too), so it wouldn’t have mattered if he had credited Finesse or not.

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

Holy wow. I can't even. He just went ahead and used the whole thing didn't he? That’s not a derivative work AT ALL!

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

This is the kicker, folks, this is the game right here. Either Lord Finesse or his lawyers (or both) are very smart and could smell that blood in the water. They saw that Mac Miller's (and now Dan Bull's, for that matter) use of Lord Finesse's copyrighted work did, in fact, effect the potential market value of Lord Finesse's work. If asked, who would you think made that beat? If you were to go out and purchase an album, would it be more likely that you would now seek out and find Mac Miller's work rather than Lord Finesse's fairly used, copyrighted work? Yes. Mac Miller has significantly affected the potential market value of Lord Finesse's work by using it in his song, to the potential tune of 10 million smithereens. End of story.

Dan Bull’s work is also being ripped from YouTube as fast as it’s being reposted in protest, for the same reason. Despite being a critique of Lord Finesse (which is a completely fair use) he’s rapping over the same beat! Folks, save yourselves some time and get to the source of the problem before you run your mouth.

I don’t care what you say Mac Miller's song is so much better than Lord Finesse's song anyway. You’re stupid you suck, TLDR, GFY, OMG.

Think about this: without Lord Finesse, it's likely that Mac Miller would've gone unrecognized at his tiny label, competing to be heard from Pittsburgh, and behind label mate Wiz Kalifah without a big "mature" sounding beat like that of "Hip 2 Da Game."

The spirit of hiphop is not to steal entire tracks, it's to sample beats with which to rap over, to go out into the community and make art, to dance. Members of the hiphop community are artists just like any other community, their work, whether derivative fair use or completely original, falls under protection of the US Copyright office, and people who infringe upon that work are subject to punishment. This is to protect you, and allow you some semblance of a chance to scratch out a life for yourself with your own creative endeavors. Hiphop is the folk music of a people, a people who know better than to let themselves be ripped off, be knowledgable, beware.
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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Dids »

Ardy,

The legal hairsplitting is meaningless. It's a conversation about never letting things get to that point. If you're a producer who uses samples to make beats, you just don't start suing people for doing the same to you. Dude might have a legal point, but the conversation is more about cultural norms than legality.

And this argument is horrible
Think about this: without Lord Finesse, it's likely that Mac Miller would've gone unrecognized at his tiny label, competing to be heard from Pittsburgh, and behind label mate Wiz Kalifah without a big "mature" sounding beat like that of "Hip 2 Da Game."
The degree of offense shouldn't hinge on how things turned out. If I do the exact same thing and nobody but my cats hear it, I've still jacked a beat. Sure it might feel undeserved and cheap, but blame the dude's fans for that, not him.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Pizon »

That "derivative works" argument is misleading too, because it implies producers don't need clearance to sample as long as they're making a new beat.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by ardamus »

Dids wrote:The legal hairsplitting is meaningless..
What I posted explains why Finesse did not get in trouble with clearing the Oscar Peterson sample. And it explains why Mac had to pay him. Everyone on here has used this argument of him not paying Oscar Peterson for the sample clearance. Well, there's an argument. Legal hairsplitting? Its a lawsuit, genius. That's what happens in areas of the legal field. Lawyers and clients dig for details that may have been overlooked or dismissed. And I'm not one of those folks that hate Mac either. I just think pinpointing Finesse as a crazy greedy dude is just as bad as saying Mac and his team was completely innocent on this. Playing field is about the same, IMO. Finesse sampled Peterson; didn't clear it. Mac took an instrumental from Finesse. I have to admit, I didn't know it was credited so I stand corrected on that. According to what to the circumstances of what made Mac famous and etc., Finesse got to settle on a lawsuit. Rewind before that, they were trying to negotiate something while Mac was building a buzz with some of his people. But its obvious, Finesse caught wind of something going on that he might've didn't like and hopped on it. But it didn't go to trial so thats good. It is what it is.......
Pizon wrote:That "derivative works" argument is misleading too, because it implies producers don't need clearance to sample as long as they're making a new beat.
I won't lie. Its a grey area argument. I didn't want to bring it up at first but I thought this argument was a good way to explain part of it. All in all, this case is important to folks doing mixtapes and etc.
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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by anticonguy »

Mac already been exposed for stealin beats...sorry if this was already posted in the thread.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Thun »

How is Dids not up for banning?

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Random Sample »

Thun wrote:Finesse deserves to get paid.
No

Oscar Peterson deserves to get paid.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Req »

Random Sample wrote:
Thun wrote:Finesse deserves to get paid.
No

Oscar Peterson deserves to get paid.
:cheers:

btw, I wonder would if his estate would take interest if they heard about this little settlement.
F.U. MOOLAH

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by blastmaster »

If Mac miller wasn't such a faggot I think I would have something to say about this.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Nav »

ardamus wrote: http://lineout.thestranger.com/lineout/ ... on-dollars

Think about this: without Lord Finesse, it's likely that Mac Miller would've gone unrecognized at his tiny label, competing to be heard from Pittsburgh, and behind label mate Wiz Kalifah without a big "mature" sounding beat like that of "Hip 2 Da Game."
This is hilarious. If record labels would sign rappers because they rapped on someone else's (classic) beat then EVERY rapper would have a record deal.

Anyway, the math, again.

Nikes On My Feet was uploaded on 06/01/2010 (Kool Aid came out almost two months later). It has 32 millions views so far and Donald Trump has 77 million views.

K.I.D.S. came out on August 13, 2010 with Finesse being credited (Kool Aid & Frozen Pizza (prod. Lord Finesse).

Miller is one shady dude but what is Finesse trying to tell us ?

a) Don't rap on my beats (Dan Bull getting messages from Lord Finesse's lawyers)*
b) Don't rap on my beats, unless I like you (Joey)
c) Don't rap on my beats IF you will become famous

*


Legal question - does a free mixtape count as "commercial use" ?
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Naw, he likes hip hop and rap. He was just referring to if he hadn't started rapping he would've been a cop.
So he's cursing it, not that he doesn't like it, just for the sake of it.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by step one »

Thread serves as a reminder that Dids once thought Lord Finesse and Large Professor were the same person.
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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by ardamus »

Req wrote:
Random Sample wrote:
Thun wrote:Finesse deserves to get paid.
No

Oscar Peterson deserves to get paid.
:cheers:

btw, I wonder would if his estate would take interest if they heard about this little settlement.
Yeah, I do agree that Finesse should settle something with Oscar Peterson. If Mac's people didn't do business right with Finesse, then the same rule applies to Finesse's people when it comes to Oscar Peterson. Domino effect.
Nav wrote:
ardamus wrote: http://lineout.thestranger.com/lineout/ ... on-dollars

Think about this: without Lord Finesse, it's likely that Mac Miller would've gone unrecognized at his tiny label, competing to be heard from Pittsburgh, and behind label mate Wiz Kalifah without a big "mature" sounding beat like that of "Hip 2 Da Game."
This is hilarious. If record labels would sign rappers because they rapped on someone else's (classic) beat then EVERY rapper would have a record deal.

Anyway, the math, again.

Nikes On My Feet was uploaded on 06/01/2010 (Kool Aid came out almost two months later). It has 32 millions views so far and Donald Trump has 77 million views.

K.I.D.S. came out on August 13, 2010 with Finesse being credited (Kool Aid & Frozen Pizza (prod. Lord Finesse).

Miller is one shady dude but what is Finesse trying to tell us ?

a) Don't rap on my beats (Dan Bull getting messages from Lord Finesse's lawyers)*
b) Don't rap on my beats, unless I like you (Joey)
c) Don't rap on my beats IF you will become famous

*


Legal question - does a free mixtape count as "commercial use" ?
This lawsuit has held up maybe a mixtape or two from coming out. Not sure how that works with a mixtape being counted as commercial use; probably depends on the label, the distribution, and etc.
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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by AWAE »


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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Reggie »

ardamus wrote:
Dids wrote:The legal hairsplitting is meaningless..
What I posted explains why Finesse did not get in trouble with clearing the Oscar Peterson sample. And it explains why Mac had to pay him. Everyone on here has used this argument of him not paying Oscar Peterson for the sample clearance. Well, there's an argument. Legal hairsplitting? Its a lawsuit, genius. That's what happens in areas of the legal field. Lawyers and clients dig for details that may have been overlooked or dismissed. And I'm not one of those folks that hate Mac either. I just think pinpointing Finesse as a crazy greedy dude is just as bad as saying Mac and his team was completely innocent on this. Playing field is about the same, IMO. Finesse sampled Peterson; didn't clear it. Mac took an instrumental from Finesse. I have to admit, I didn't know it was credited so I stand corrected on that. According to what to the circumstances of what made Mac famous and etc., Finesse got to settle on a lawsuit. Rewind before that, they were trying to negotiate something while Mac was building a buzz with some of his people. But its obvious, Finesse caught wind of something going on that he might've didn't like and hopped on it. But it didn't go to trial so thats good. It is what it is.......
Pizon wrote:That "derivative works" argument is misleading too, because it implies producers don't need clearance to sample as long as they're making a new beat.
I won't lie. Its a grey area argument. I didn't want to bring it up at first but I thought this argument was a good way to explain part of it. All in all, this case is important to folks doing mixtapes and etc.
I think what Dids is saying is that, though there's a legal precedent to be pursued here, it's still kind of foul of Finesse. It would be like me serving a Good Housekeeping recipe for dinner one night and then calling you out for serving the same meal a week later. Whether or not Good Housekeeping will pursue either of us for claiming their Apple Crumb Cake as our own, it's deceitful of me to claim some ownership.

The legal precedent is inarguable, it's really an ethical quandary. Frankly, nothing would make me happier than for my favorite producers to bankrupt the entire industry as it stands and force socially-inept musicians to promote themselves. I'm kind of a nihilist like that. It would make my millennium if modern rappers started belching their staccato nonsense over click tracks and sampled novelty songs early twentieth-century 78 RPM records. I foresee a future where all rap music is extrapolated from the demo songs on 1980s Casio keyboards and rhymes are plucked from the Old and New Testaments as well as the Book of Mormon.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Pizon »

Nav wrote:Legal question - does a free mixtape count as "commercial use" ?
Short answer: yes.

The "fair use" factors are not dispositive; they're used as a balancing test. How commercial in nature the purpose and character of the use is, at least in theory, will not in itself determine the outcome of the case. Naturally, selling something makes it more commercial in nature than giving it away. But courts tend to find such uses nonetheless seek some measure of commercial gain (i.e., using the song to increase the value of your brand). So, while it may not harm your case as much as putting the song on a retail album, it will likely still work against you.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Mark 563 »

For those calling out Finesse for being a hypocrite, or in some way acting foul, playing favourites, or whatever, for going the legal route - was it not Mac Miller's camp that suggested Finesse took legal action if he felt he'd been wronged? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Thun »

Mac Miller's a faggot. I think this part of it is being underplayed.


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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by ardamus »

:lol:

everyone gets a lawsuit when it comes to mac miller
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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Jedisdope »

trump has been trolling for like a decade plus.
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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Thun »

Req wrote:
Random Sample wrote:
Thun wrote:Finesse deserves to get paid.
No

Oscar Peterson deserves to get paid.
:cheers:

btw, I wonder would if his estate would take interest if they heard about this little settlement.
Who said these have to be mutually exclusive options, geniuses?

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by drizzle »

the story continues to new highs of lol

apparently the critical disrespect and dismissal of his work left lil mac sad, so he got addicted to lean
In his recent interview with Complex, Mac revealed that the poor reviews, mixed with feeling boxed in to being a “frat rapper” when his 2012 tour hit nothing but colleges, sent him into a downward spiral that got him hooked on promethazine (aka lean).
“I love lean; it’s great,” he told Complex. But during the Macadelic tour things got out of hand. “I was not happy and I was on lean very heavy. I was so f#cked up all the time it was bad. My friends couldn’t even look at me the same. I was lost.”
Then when that lawsuit came from Lord Finesse over the summer, it got him even more upset…but it was also a wakeup call that he needed to get clean.
“I’ve never really been worried about Mac except during that lean period,” his childhood friend Jimmy told the mag. “I saw him in that mentality I remember being in—you’re getting f#cked up because you feel like you need to. You’re trying to get away from everything.”
Everyone got more worried about him, but finally, he was able to kick the habit in November…just before his new reality show started taping.
“For how much he was drinking, it’s unbelievable that he stopped,” Jimmy added. It’s definitely one of the most impressive things he’s ever done.”
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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by DLG »

"It’s definitely one of the most impressive things he’s ever done.”


this is actually true though.

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by Piff Tannen »

well he gon get hooked on it again once he goes from 'frat rapper' to 'reality show rapper'

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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by dubs »

who is he kidding?

he knows hes safe touring colleges.
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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by AVENTUS »

ardamus wrote:Looks like Finesse was pretty hip to the game after all.
LMMFAO

Dude has gotten over heavy on two whiteboys now.
His Lawyer's GAMEPLAN>
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Re: Mac Miller has to pay Lord Finesse $10 Million from laws

Post by AVENTUS »

Employee wrote::copy: :copy: :copy: :copy: :copy:

This should be a lesson and the judgement should be framed and handed down to every retard under the age of twenty-one with an internet connection and rap aspirations.
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