Pete Rock Loses Mind on Lupe

[ALASKA]

Pete's my dude, but fuck outta here. I wonder if Tom Scott feels as strongly. Or if any of the artist he's sampled feel that same way about what he did with there stuff.

Like Req said, he's just mad he didn't get a check. Cause he certainly didn't care that his "deep emotional song" was getting used on a fuckin' video game that had shit do to with deep or emotional.

this. i love when people who coopt songs get upset about their songs in turn being coopted. that said fuck lupe.

[stype_ones]

rap is an art, you don't own no loops.

[Kace]

I get what Pete Rock is saying. T.R.O.Y. is one of my favourite joints and I don't wanna see anybody else sample it or remake it.
But for discussion's sake, how is this different from any producer sampling any other soul/funk/rock/whatever song that's considered a classic and flipping it? What makes this particular song off-limits? It's not like Lupe copied the theme from the original. He's talking his own shit and just using the beat.

Yeah what does Tom Scott have to say over this?

Lupe's still a douche tho.

[Mindbender Futurama]

Pete's my dude, but fuck outta here. I wonder if Tom Scott feels as strongly. Or if any of the artist he's sampled feel that same way about what he did with there stuff.

Like Req said, he's just mad he didn't get a check. Cause he certainly didn't care that his "deep emotional song" was getting used on a fuckin' video game that had shit do to with deep or emotional.

this. i love when people who coopt songs get upset about their songs in turn being coopted. that said fuck lupe.

but there is a certain integrity that seems to be lost.

in rock and roll, there are a few songs/riffs/groups that NOBODY would DARE touch, and everyone who is true to the artform knows it.

shit is the same for hip hop. and yeah, nobody owns any loops, but doesn't Lupe recognize the spiritual importance of TROY to those who are still alive and were involved in the song?

if you forget that... then FORGET YOU

[drizzle]

in rock and roll, there are a few songs/riffs/groups that NOBODY would DARE touch, and everyone who is true to the artform knows it.

this is beyond ludicrous, like 10000% false. if anything, rock is far far more open to bands using each others material

just at the basic level, a good chunk of rock music is build on a foundation of the same 3 chords, and many many many songs are created from similar chord progressions.

Beatles and Led Zepplin are notorious for either appropriation of songs or outright plagiarism. there's been a good amount of litigation around this

almost every single canonical rock song has been covered hundreds of times. there's a thriving industry built specifically around cover bands, something that could never exist in rap

etc etc etc

[DJ Primate]

Yeah what does Tom Scott have to say over this?

Lupe's still a douche tho.

Apparently Tom Scott loves TROY, but as far as the Lupe cover I'm not sure if he's said anything about it.

The problem here is, TROY already exists, and it's a great song. Why make it again? It's nowhere near as good as the original, and it cause more controversy than lauding. Maybe it was designed to create hype for his next mediocre album. Industry tricks?

[Mindbender Futurama]

in rock and roll, there are a few songs/riffs/groups that NOBODY would DARE touch, and everyone who is true to the artform knows it.

this is beyond ludicrous, like 10000% false. if anything, rock is far far more open to bands using each others material

just at the basic level, a good chunk of rock music is build on a foundation of the same 3 chords, and many many many songs are created from similar chord progressions.

Beatles and Led Zepplin are notorious for either appropriation of songs or outright plagiarism. there's been a good amount of litigation around this

almost every single canonical rock song has been covered hundreds of times. there's a thriving industry built specifically around cover bands, something that could never exist in rap

etc etc etc

sure, but there is an ART to doing version and covers, and Lupe seems to not be aware of any sacredness to this rap song.

it's hard to articulate in a way... but you don't just TAKE the shit and USE it. you INTERPRET it in a new way. and in that sense, it's NOT the same as using the exact same fucking loop/sample as someone else. in rock, people don't just mimic the next motherfucker like "watch me copy Eric Clapton to a fucking T, and make you think he's me".

Clones aren't cool, but showing that you are nearly as proficient as some rock legend will gain you some respect. But you can't just fucking chomp on Slash's nuts and be like "yeah! my version of Welcome to the Jungle IS BETTER, check it out"

and you contrarian asshunting shitmoose: i said there are A FEW songs that rockers know you DO NOT touch.

"Stairway to Heaven", for instance.

now, get off me.

[drizzle]

in rock, people don't just mimic the next motherfucker like "watch me copy Eric Clapton to a fucking T, and make you think he's me".

actually, they do. all the fucking time. that's why words like 'cover band' and 'tribute band' exist in the first place

and you contrarian asshunting shitmoose: i said there are A FEW songs that rockers know you DO NOT touch.

"Stairway to Heaven", for instance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _to_Heaven

[B. Ware tha Siniq]

The problem here is, TROY already exists, and it's a great song. Why make it again? It's nowhere near as good as the original, and it cause more controversy than lauding. Maybe it was designed to create hype for his next mediocre album. Industry tricks?

Agreed. Remaking classics is always problematic in that most of the time your song is not going to be anywhere near as good, and will thus create backlash. If he wanted to do it, the least he should've done is approach Pete about it to see if he had his blessing.

I get the "sample" argument, but that's not really the issue here. The issue is that he took a classic song and made a very mediocre remake of it. Are there other artists who've done the same, absolutely, but rarely is that greeted with a resounding "Oh look, they remade Juicy and it's better!" vibe from the public. Sometimes older artists get pissed that their work is sampled, sure. Sometimes they appreciate it, there's a different dynamic (nuanced as it is) between sampling something and remaking/covering something within the same genre.

I think if Avril Lavigne came out with a cover of "Stairway to Heaven" there'd be some folks up in arms about that too.

[B. Ware tha Siniq]

in rock, people don't just mimic the next motherfucker like "watch me copy Eric Clapton to a fucking T, and make you think he's me".

actually, they do. all the fucking time. that's why words like 'cover band' and 'tribute band' exist in the first place

Sure, but Lupe is not a cover band. This is not Katy Perry doing "N*ggas in Paris" or a bunch of white rockers covering "Gin & Juice"

both of which may be objectionable for completely different reasons.

[DJ Primate]

in rock, people don't just mimic the next motherfucker like "watch me copy Eric Clapton to a fucking T, and make you think he's me".

actually, they do. all the fucking time. that's why words like 'cover band' and 'tribute band' exist in the first place

Sure, but Lupe is not a cover band. This is not Katy Perry doing "N*ggas in Paris" or a bunch of white rockers covering "Gin & Juice"

both of which may be objectionable for completely different reasons.

Covering EXACTLY to the T the song you're covering is a bit pointless to me. Like B. Ware said, that's for cover bands to do, not "creative" artists. The best covers are the ones that step out of the boundaries of the original, twist it, shape it, and bring your own flavor to the song to really make it yours. Lupe did none of that, he just replayed the song and slapped his own half-assed lyrics on it.

EDIT: crappy spelling.

[drizzle]

in rock, people don't just mimic the next motherfucker like "watch me copy Eric Clapton to a fucking T, and make you think he's me".

actually, they do. all the fucking time. that's why words like 'cover band' and 'tribute band' exist in the first place

Sure, but Lupe is not a cover band. This is not Katy Perry doing "N*ggas in Paris" or a bunch of white rockers covering "Gin & Juice"

both of which may be objectionable for completely different reasons.

ok than how about the fred durst/goo goo dolls cover of wish you were here, a fairly faithful take on the original which i'm pretty sure charted on billboard?

rock bands cover each other all the time. sure some fans get mad, but these covers often do very well in general, especially when the original song belongs to some previous generation. rock, as a genre in whole, has ALWAYS been far more forgiving of people taking each others music

[B. Ware tha Siniq]

in rock, people don't just mimic the next motherfucker like "watch me copy Eric Clapton to a fucking T, and make you think he's me".

actually, they do. all the fucking time. that's why words like 'cover band' and 'tribute band' exist in the first place

Sure, but Lupe is not a cover band. This is not Katy Perry doing "N*ggas in Paris" or a bunch of white rockers covering "Gin & Juice"

both of which may be objectionable for completely different reasons.

ok than how about the fred durst/goo goo dolls cover of wish you were here, a fairly faithful take on the original which i'm pretty sure charted on billboard?

rock bands cover each other all the time. sure some fans get mad, but these covers often do very well in general, especially when the original song belongs to some previous generation. rock, as a genre in whole, has ALWAYS been far more forgiving of people taking each others music

So two things:

1) Lupe's take is not faithful in anyway. If it was, that would probably go a long way here with Pete and the public. Nobody was outraged (at least publicly in the grand scheme of things) when he rapped over the instrumental on a mixtape.

2) I'm not arguing that it can't be done. Or even that it isn't profitable. "Ready or Not" has been sharked multiple times to good results, "Who Shot Ya?," "Affirmative Action," "Rainy Dayz" all have been R&Bized in the past several years. I'm just saying there is an inevitable backlash that may not be worth the risk. In cases where one makes a song that is actually chartable, the pros of doing it might outweigh the cons. Lupe's song is not chartable and will not likely bring him any new fans or revenue streams.

Basically bad move, rap dude.

[Mindbender Futurama]

in rock, people don't just mimic the next motherfucker like "watch me copy Eric Clapton to a fucking T, and make you think he's me".

actually, they do. all the fucking time. that's why words like 'cover band' and 'tribute band' exist in the first place

and you contrarian asshunting shitmoose: i said there are A FEW songs that rockers know you DO NOT touch.

"Stairway to Heaven", for instance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _to_Heaven

son, TRIBUTE BANDS GENERALLY DON'T CHART WITH ALBUMS OF MUSIC OF THE PEOPLE THEY ARE INSPIRED BY. once in a while, sure, but EUROSMITH isn't going to be taking out Aerosmith's place in rock history anytime soon. It's a fucking cottage industry, a nostalgia trip for those who want to get as close to the original feeling as possible... but everyone KNOWS it's not the real thing. Fuckers aren't like "oh well Pearl Jam is busy this year so let's just get PEARL JEM to headline Lollapalooza, nobody will notice"

I know tribute/cover bands replay music of others... but that's like saying the little Korean girl singing at a karaoke bar who can hit every note of 'Vision of Love' by Mariah Carey IS DOING THE SAME THING AS MARIAH CAREY.

and i'm not saying you CAN'T play 'Stairway to Heaven', i'm saying IT'S A FUCKING HELLAFIED PLAYED OUT ROCK CLICHE that real rock dudes know you shouldn't do anymore if you are trying to gain respect from an audience. that's like sampling the 'Funky Drummer' or 'Nautilus' in hip hop. sure, technically, you CAN do it anytime you want. but christ. AGAIN?

and yeah, no matter what happens, there will be people for and against any cover version and any remake. I saw Chris Cornell live once, and he did a version of 'Billie Jean' that was ~completely~ different than Michael Jackson's. I didn't mind Chris's version of it... but I also did not forget who made the original.

peace to B.Ware.

[ALASKA]

that's like sampling the...' or 'Nautilus' in hip hop. sure, technically, you CAN do it anytime you want. but christ. AGAIN?

i see that statement and raise you this.

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imo the best rap song of 2011

[drizzle]

i agree with most of that

my argument was against the ludicrous blanket statement about rock having some sort of superior sacred cow code about cover songs or interpolations. that's retarded.

[Mindbender Futurama]

that's like sampling the...' or 'Nautilus' in hip hop. sure, technically, you CAN do it anytime you want. but christ. AGAIN?

i see that statement and raise you this.

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/X9vT2hV8_PQ?ve ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/X9vT2hV8_PQ?version=3&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

imo the best rap song of 2011

see, i'm in your camp.

i think you can do anything to anything... as long as you EVOLVE it.

i'm assuming Lupe took the TROY loop, and just rapped on it. MAYBE he used different drums, but still.

I'm dead ass serious about not listening to the song, so I don't have it as a reference point. But I'm with you.

97% of songs can be reinterpreted and added on to and extrapolated by smart musicians with skill and soul. I still don't want to hear NAAN ninja try to "improve" 'The World is Yours' or 'Protect Ya Neck' or 'Fight The Power'. On a mixtape, as a tribute or something? Maybe. But as your official new song? Fuck no.

I LOVE Buckshot Shorty's version of 'I Ain't No Joke'. He knew how to update it, and I bet Rakim digs it.

Lupe's song? Not so much.

peace to Pete Rock, Alaska and Danny Brown

[B. Ware tha Siniq]

i agree with most of that

my argument was against the ludicrous blanket statement about rock having some sort of superior sacred cow code about cover songs or interpolations. that's retarded.

Yeah I'm not a big fan of sacred cow codes in general.

If anything I think Lupe or whoever pushed him to do this, is coming at it from a "there's no such thing as bad publicity" angle. And knows this will get the twitterverse and blogosphere goin' nuts. The guy doesn't have much going for him these days, so it might not be a bad career move, especially since most of the people who would be outraged by this are in their early thirties to late forties and they're not going to buy a Lupe album anyway.

[B. Ware tha Siniq]

i'm assuming Lupe took the TROY loop, and just rapped on it. MAYBE he used different drums, but still.

Dude, not to be funny, but you really don't have any place talking about this without listening to the song. It's kind of important to the conversation that the producer kind of fucked up the original beat.

[ALASKA]

that's like sampling the...' or 'Nautilus' in hip hop. sure, technically, you CAN do it anytime you want. but christ. AGAIN?

i see that statement and raise you this.

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/X9vT2hV8_PQ?ve ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/X9vT2hV8_PQ?version=3&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

imo the best rap song of 2011

see, i'm in your camp.

i think you can do anything to anything... as long as you EVOLVE it.

i'm assuming Lupe took the TROY loop, and just rapped on it. MAYBE he used different drums, but still.

I'm dead ass serious about not listening to the song, so I don't have it as a reference point. But I'm with you.

97% of songs can be reinterpreted and added on to and extrapolated by smart musicians with skill and soul. I still don't want to hear NAAN ninja try to "improve" 'The World is Yours' or 'Protect Ya Neck' or 'Fight The Power'. On a mixtape, as a tribute or something? Maybe. But as your official new song? Fuck no.

I LOVE Buckshot Shorty's version of 'I Ain't No Joke'. He knew how to update it, and I bet Rakim digs it.

Lupe's song? Not so much.

peace to Pete Rock, Alaska and Danny Brown

i am by no means defending lupe. i think he sucks, has a lot of talent but zero imagination.

i am laughing at pete rock though who based his whole career off using other peoples music as he saw fit getting bitchy when someone else did the same thing. im sure if the dude who he sampled the troy horns from was like "fuck that pete rock dude taking my song and shit". pete would be all like "THEIR MY EMOTIONS BRO!"

[Mindbender Futurama]

i'm assuming Lupe took the TROY loop, and just rapped on it. MAYBE he used different drums, but still.

Dude, not to be funny, but you really don't have any place talking about this without listening to the song. It's kind of important to the conversation that the producer kind of fucked up the original beat.

Yeah sure. I see your point. But I still won't, because I don't like giving ANY mental time or space to the stupid ass bullshit that people do these days. I actually cried when I heard the song in 1991. I was a big fan of Heavy D, Tony Dofat, the whole Mount Vernon posse, and Pete Rock and CL Smooth from the 80's and 90's. This shit is as blasphemous as I can imagine hip hop being, and I'm disappointed that Lupe doesn't seem to understand that.

I'm sure I will overhear it somewhere soon. But I'm not going to voluntarily press play on a song I believe is the definition of a bad idea. Not in 2012. There's enough bullshit rap in my life already. I'm MAD serious about music being religious to me. And I like Lupe at times... I am NOT feeling this move though, and I won't support it.

And am I forgetting something or did the Lost Boyz use the TROY sample in the early 2000's? Didn't they get Pete Rock on the song too? I didn't tune into it, but yeah.... I remember when that happened.

"Reminisce 03" it was. At least Lost Boyz got Pete and CL to co-sign it by being on the song with them.

big difference.

there's enough blasphemy in rap for me to be in this conversation without hearing Lupe's epic fail.

[Cash Rulz]

This has shit to do with T.R.O.Y.

The beat is not T.R.O.Y.

The beat is Tom Scott. Wait....

The beat is Jefferson Airplane since Tom Scott was doing a cover for that song.

Also, LUPE DIDN'T MAKE THE BEAT. So this just further's your Lupe hate unnecessarily.

If you wanna say its a wack use of the sample, cool, but acting like you can't re-use a sample someone's already done is bullshit, hypocritical, and emo as hell.

[B. Ware tha Siniq]

Also, LUPE DIDN'T MAKE THE BEAT. So this just further's your Lupe hate unnecessarily.

That's an absurd statement. The producer is culpable too, but unless this is an unauthorized remix, the rapper made a decision to rap over the beat. Whether you agree with flipping the sample again or not is really irrelevant to the fact that as a person you're accountable for your own actions. People can feel how they want to about the whole situation, but if Lupe couldn't foresee the backlash he's an idiot.

[Cash Rulz]

Also, LUPE DIDN'T MAKE THE BEAT. So this just further's your Lupe hate unnecessarily.

That's an absurd statement. The producer is culpable too, but unless this is an unauthorized remix, the rapper made a decision to rap over the beat. Whether you agree with flipping the sample again or not is really irrelevant to the fact that as a person you're accountable for your own actions. People can feel how they want to about the whole situation, but if Lupe couldn't foresee the backlash he's an idiot.

What backlash? Should Puffy receive backlash for re-doing "The Message"?

And Lupe not making the beat is not an absurd statement. ITS A FACT. Rappers don't make beats, producers do. You do know that?

Choosing to rap over the beat may get him the flack, but if dude had flipped the sample in a "fire" way and if Ghostface rapped over it, you would be praising it as the song that will save hiphop.

[B. Ware tha Siniq]

What backlash? Should Puffy receive backlash for re-doing "The Message"?

He did get backlash for that. Whether he should or not is not really important (or at least not to me). As stated earlier, if it's profitable the pro's might outweigh the cons, but there were definitely people mad at that song.

And Lupe not making the beat is not an absurd statement. ITS A FACT. Rappers don't make beats, producers do. You do know that?

It's an absurd statement that because Lupe didn't make the beat, it "unnecessarily furthers Lupe hate." He made the decision to rap on the beat. It takes a rapper and a producer to make a rap song, does it not? (not meant to be a riddle)

Choosing to rap over the beat may get him the flack, but if dude had flipped the sample in a "fire" way and if Ghostface rapped over it, you would be praising it as the song that will save hiphop.

Agreed.

[Cash Rulz]

Choosing to rap over the beat may get him the flack, but if dude had flipped the sample in a "fire" way and if Ghostface rapped over it, you would be praising it as the song that will save hiphop.

Agreed.

Probably all it boils down to.

[Moolah]

The point is that he blatantly (and poorly) bit Pete Rock, not that he used the same sample. He basically recreated the same beat, which unless it's a tribute song or a "remake", isn't that generally considered blatant biting?

[Employee]

This is a double-page banger about Lupe Fiasco.

GOOD GOD...

[EichTurner]

The point is that he blatantly (and poorly) bit Pete Rock, not that he used the same sample. He basically recreated the same beat, which unless it's a tribute song or a "remake", isn't that generally considered blatant biting?

Exaactly. plenty of people sample old rap songs all the time even cover it in a concert.. but it's with the knowledge that it's a cover. NO ONE just uses the EXACT beat for something like Knowledge God and puts their own raps over it. i think it's just that raps supposed to be more creative than that.. it really does seem like he's just taking over the song. actually for the record i don't think he did it poorly the rapping sounds alright.. the rest though..

[LilLeftBrain]

rap cats are mighty touchy