Slug Defends Saul Williams Against Sage Francis

[ayentee]

I think its important to have a sage francis in the world. seriously, if no one questioned sauls motives then we would have never gotten the response. I think its great to have a checks and balances system in place and sage has been doing just that for years. Sauls reply definitely sparked my interest on the subject and now i want to hear more about the work nike as a coorperation is doing to better the living conditions for people around the world. Thank god for people like sage. Thank god for people like Saul Williams. Fuck slug for not signing me

[blessingindisguise]

http://www.mtvu.com/video/?id=1584548&vid=220524

[I.R.A. Soldier]

pusherman is whats up

[ardamus]

I think its important to have a sage francis in the world. seriously, if no one questioned sauls motives then we would have never gotten the response. I think its great to have a checks and balances system in place and sage has been doing just that for years. Sauls reply definitely sparked my interest on the subject and now i want to hear more about the work nike as a coorperation is doing to better the living conditions for people around the world. Thank god for people like sage. Thank god for people like Saul Williams. Fuck slug for not signing me

word. it was good he was questioned but i just think the way it came across was bit too judgemental. we have to question our artists motives but at the same time.....i don't like to see talented dudes like him starve.

i can't co-sign on slug not signing you since i don't know whats up with that. hopefully he has a good reason.

[ayentee]

I think its important to have a sage francis in the world. seriously, if no one questioned sauls motives then we would have never gotten the response. I think its great to have a checks and balances system in place and sage has been doing just that for years. Sauls reply definitely sparked my interest on the subject and now i want to hear more about the work nike as a coorperation is doing to better the living conditions for people around the world. Thank god for people like sage. Thank god for people like Saul Williams. Fuck slug for not signing me

word. it was good he was questioned but i just think the way it came across was bit too judgemental. we have to question our artists motives but at the same time.....i don't like to see talented dudes like him starve.

i can't co-sign on slug not signing you since i don't know whats up with that. hopefully he has a good reason.

probably cus i never asked him. Figured he'd sign me in his 1k shout out thread but no dice.

[JaH BLaZe]

word. last 20 years . hip hop music and culture has been completely corporatized.

where this sage francis gets off to criticize , comes from a lake of self righteousness.
i like some of his music , but i dont hang on to evrything the man say like hes a hiphop messiah . you got to question your own motives for self gain before you go around running audits on your peers. i done did that in the business sector and learned from my mistakes .
"you live for the underground and die for the underground , and still makin no mon-ey" - de la soul 2004.

[Vlad Analogue]

I never understand these. It's like niggas never ask about who fucking makes the microphones or sound systems of the clubs they play....

[Fuzzy Logic]

who gives a flying fuck

[GUCCI CONDOMS]

lol at getting money not being "cool", these guys need to grow the fuck up

[FYBS]

Slug and Saul's responses were so on point, especially Slug's comment on changing the corporate landscape from within.

A corporation is only the sum of its people, practices, policies, etc. When you change those things, you can improve situations. Those who just bitch and make ironic t-shirts are kinda short changing themselves.

[chump change]

I never understand these. It's like niggas never ask about who fucking makes the microphones or sound systems of the clubs they play....

lol never crossed my mind...

You just gave 'em an investment idea

[jamrage]

but I also met, Persia, whose boyfreind I played on the show, and is now
my wife (its been 30 days!).

damn.. Saul married Persia from Girlfriends.... NICE!!!

Way to get to the crux of the problem.

[Solo45]

Sage did a PETA spot on a free DVD they were trying to give out at a show I went to in philly...
I have a stain on it from the Cheesesteak I was eating, but anyways, check this!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZRk7ygbkA-c

[Trademark]

Sage did a PETA spot on a free DVD they were trying to give out at a show I went to in philly...
I have a stain on it from the Cheesesteak I was eating, but anyways, check this!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZRk7ygbkA-c

is that sage spot in this clip? I'm not weeding through 10 minutes of penn gillette....hate that guy.

[Haitian Jack]

I think its important to have a sage francis in the world. seriously, if no one questioned sauls motives then we would have never gotten the response. I think its great to have a checks and balances system in place and sage has been doing just that for years. Sauls reply definitely sparked my interest on the subject and now i want to hear more about the work nike as a coorperation is doing to better the living conditions for people around the world. Thank god for people like sage. Thank god for people like Saul Williams. Fuck slug for not signing me

exactly. both sides made some good points really

[Xaula Zany]

eh. Hmmm.

Some of you are really twisting up many elements of this debate.
There are some selective listeners/readers here. In fact, you probably didn't even really read what I wrote or what my reasoning was for questioning why this could be a problem.

I have no hate for Saul whatsoever. I consider him a friend. I've been representing a side of the debate that seems to be poorly understood and articulated. There's almost no one on this side so I'm feeling lonely. I very well could be wrong. I'll accept that. No...more...lonely?

I'm not feeling self-righteous. I'm not condemning anyone. All I can do is explain why I don't jive with credible artists providing credibility to corporations with a questionable past, present and future.

What kind of sponsorship could I pull down? Well, I've turned down some pretty big deals (in the 6 figure range to be exact.) Yet, my albums are being sold in Wal-Mart, I perform at festivals that have sponsorship I don't like being associated with, I allow my music to be in some films and TV shows, and I'm sure the list of things I do in the future will undoubtedly result in finger pointing.

I don't need to do things for the money, but sometimes I do. As you can probably tell from my 250 lb frame, I'm well fed. At this level, we're not doing things because we "need to eat." Saul will never starve. Sean will never starve. If my eating habit reaches morbid levels, maybe you'll see me throw my career away for a last-ditch Dunkin Donuts advertisement. Not likely, but hey...I'll need to eat.

We don't need these corporations, and we don't need to utilize them in order to work from the inside. The people who work at those corporations are the ones who need to do that. I believe that indie artists who have garnered a large supportive fan base are already on the "inside." I mean, how inside to we really need to get? Saul has his own methods. I have my own methods. I think we can both sit at a diner together and shoot the shit just as easily as before. Him and I disagree on some things. Same with Sean.

B Dolan summed this up in a good way:

all this moral relativism shit kinda wreaks of 'self esteem generation' thinking. like whatever you want to do is OK because you want to do it.

i support counter-productive or bad shit every day ... i support shitty companies due to my laziness or addiction or whatever... but i take RESPONSIBILITY for the act. that's all I'm advocating here ... that people not try to re-arrange reality so the act is ok. just man up and say:

'when i buy marlboro cigarettes im supporting oppression, but most days i feel powerless to stop' ... 'exxon is a garbage company, but i'm too lazy to go anywhere else cause its on my way to work'.

'saul williams advocates social justice in his work, and sold his music to a company that, for all intents and purposes, owns slaves. bummer.'

i can live with shit like that, because it acknowledges objective facts.

i'm not trying to judge anyone here ... saul william's balance sheet is for him and his accountant to figure out.

what i am saying is that we shouldn't surrender our objective ability to say "that's wack though. guess saul williams did a wack thing."

sorry for the long post

And, yes, sorry for the long post. It's time for me to bow out of this non-stop debate and save whatever hair I have left.

Cheers,
Sage "self-fighteous" Franbitch

www.strangefamous.com

[mike eagle]

To me, this involves not shying
away from anything from responding to emails or song liscensing requests
even though the repercussions may demand more of my attention than I
feel like giving.

jewels

[chump change]

if he was only doing it for the exposure he would be justified...

the people that really need to hear saul, have no idea who he is yet...

[ardamus]

eh. Hmmm.

Some of you are really twisting up many elements of this debate.
There are some selective listeners/readers here. In fact, you probably didn't even really read what I wrote or what my reasoning was for questioning why this could be a problem.

I have no hate for Saul whatsoever. I consider him a friend. I've been representing a side of the debate that seems to be poorly understood and articulated. There's almost no one on this side so I'm feeling lonely. I very well could be wrong. I'll accept that. No...more...lonely?

I'm not feeling self-righteous. I'm not condemning anyone. All I can do is explain why I don't jive with credible artists providing credibility to corporations with a questionable past, present and future.

What kind of sponsorship could I pull down? Well, I've turned down some pretty big deals (in the 6 figure range to be exact.) Yet, my albums are being sold in Wal-Mart, I perform at festivals that have sponsorship I don't like being associated with, I allow my music to be in some films and TV shows, and I'm sure the list of things I do in the future will undoubtedly result in finger pointing.

I don't need to do things for the money, but sometimes I do. As you can probably tell from my 250 lb frame, I'm well fed. At this level, we're not doing things because we "need to eat." Saul will never starve. Sean will never starve. If my eating habit reaches morbid levels, maybe you'll see me throw my career away for a last-ditch Dunkin Donuts advertisement. Not likely, but hey...I'll need to eat.

We don't need these corporations, and we don't need to utilize them in order to work from the inside. The people who work at those corporations are the ones who need to do that. I believe that indie artists who have garnered a large supportive fan base are already on the "inside." I mean, how inside to we really need to get? Saul has his own methods. I have my own methods. I think we can both sit at a diner together and shoot the shit just as easily as before. Him and I disagree on some things. Same with Sean.

B Dolan summed this up in a good way:

all this moral relativism shit kinda wreaks of 'self esteem generation' thinking. like whatever you want to do is OK because you want to do it.

i support counter-productive or bad shit every day ... i support shitty companies due to my laziness or addiction or whatever... but i take RESPONSIBILITY for the act. that's all I'm advocating here ... that people not try to re-arrange reality so the act is ok. just man up and say:

'when i buy marlboro cigarettes im supporting oppression, but most days i feel powerless to stop' ... 'exxon is a garbage company, but i'm too lazy to go anywhere else cause its on my way to work'.

'saul williams advocates social justice in his work, and sold his music to a company that, for all intents and purposes, owns slaves. bummer.'

i can live with shit like that, because it acknowledges objective facts.

i'm not trying to judge anyone here ... saul william's balance sheet is for him and his accountant to figure out.

what i am saying is that we shouldn't surrender our objective ability to say "that's wack though. guess saul williams did a wack thing."

sorry for the long post

And, yes, sorry for the long post. It's time for me to bow out of this non-stop debate and save whatever hair I have left.

Cheers,
Sage "self-fighteous" Franbitch

www.strangefamous.com

to be fair i did read what some of what was posted in that thread. i understand both sides of it and i feel what you're saying to a certain degree. the point of you questioning his decision to say you're upholding a standard made me see you as being a bit judgemental; but i'm glad you posted that anyone could get the finger pointed at them for questionable decisions. and chump change is right.....there are people who are not exposed to an artist such as Saul who should hear him.

interesting view from b. dolan though.....

[Trademark]

Cheers,
Sage "self-fighteous" Franbitch

lolzers.

[silence]

i find it sad so many people respoonding to this thread have such elementary perspectives on corporatization, money, selling out, etc.

they dont give a fuck about saul's song, they want it to be an advertisement EVERY time the song is played. meaning free advertising.....so saul gets paid, he doesnt get paid every time that song is played, only when it is played on their commercial. People still think of the product when they hear the song without the commercial, therefore completely robbing the song of its meaning and replacing it with a visceral and emotional connection to a commercial product that has absolutely nothing to do with the music he makes, its history, or the people making it etc.

the corporations are asking for saul because they will then be able to be "o.k." with Saul's audience- people who would normally demonize that very corporation.

this is the essence of co-option- they negate their opposition by buying out the people who give power to the opposition.

I find it sad that that this is even defenseable

you dont want to scrub your toilet anymore so youre down to sellout-

thats the whole point- paying people nothing so they have no choice but to give in if they want to have a comfortable life


yall are so easy to control

[Trademark]

i find it sad so many people respoonding to this thread have such elementary perspectives on corporatization, money, selling out, etc.

they dont give a fuck about saul's song, they want it to be an advertisement EVERY time the song is played. meaning free advertising.....so saul gets paid, he doesnt get paid every time that song is played, only when it is played on their commercial. People still think of the product when they hear the song without the commercial, therefore completely robbing the song of its meaning and replacing it with a visceral and emotional connection to a commercial product that has absolutely nothing to do with the music he makes, its history, or the people making it etc.

the corporations are asking for saul because they will then be able to be "o.k." with Saul's audience- people who would normally demonize that very corporation.

this is the essence of co-option- they negate their opposition by buying out the people who give power to the opposition.

I find it sad that that this is even defenseable

you dont want to scrub your toilet anymore so youre down to sellout-

thats the whole point- paying people nothing so they have no choice but to give in if they want to have a comfortable life


yall are so easy to control

be silent silence.

[ObeseJesus]

word to b. dolan's perspective

[silence]

i find it sad so many people respoonding to this thread have such elementary perspectives on corporatization, money, selling out, etc.

they dont give a fuck about saul's song, they want it to be an advertisement EVERY time the song is played. meaning free advertising.....so saul gets paid, he doesnt get paid every time that song is played, only when it is played on their commercial. People still think of the product when they hear the song without the commercial, therefore completely robbing the song of its meaning and replacing it with a visceral and emotional connection to a commercial product that has absolutely nothing to do with the music he makes, its history, or the people making it etc.

the corporations are asking for saul because they will then be able to be "o.k." with Saul's audience- people who would normally demonize that very corporation.

this is the essence of co-option- they negate their opposition by buying out the people who give power to the opposition.

I find it sad that that this is even defenseable

you dont want to scrub your toilet anymore so youre down to sellout-

thats the whole point- paying people nothing so they have no choice but to give in if they want to have a comfortable life


yall are so easy to control

be silent silence.

insightful

[chump change]

i find it sad so many people respoonding to this thread have such elementary perspectives on corporatization, money, selling out, etc.

they dont give a fuck about saul's song, they want it to be an advertisement EVERY time the song is played. meaning free advertising.....so saul gets paid, he doesnt get paid every time that song is played, only when it is played on their commercial. People still think of the product when they hear the song without the commercial, therefore completely robbing the song of its meaning and replacing it with a visceral and emotional connection to a commercial product that has absolutely nothing to do with the music he makes, its history, or the people making it etc.

the corporations are asking for saul because they will then be able to be "o.k." with Saul's audience- people who would normally demonize that very corporation.

this is the essence of co-option- they negate their opposition by buying out the people who give power to the opposition.

I find it sad that that this is even defenseable

you dont want to scrub your toilet anymore so youre down to sellout-

thats the whole point- paying people nothing so they have no choice but to give in if they want to have a comfortable life


yall are so easy to control

be silent silence.

insightful

you don't give people enough credit...

imo sauls lyrics should be printed on the box of the shoes, sauls lyrics should replace the surgeon generals warning on everything..... matter fact squeeze sha clack clack in the parental advisory of cd's...I WILL NOT RHYME ON TRACKS, ya dig?

lol @ artists trying to get on sauls level when its apparent they are no where near it...

as gay as it may sound, i don't care... saul is the exception to the rule.... if you don't get that, than you just don't get it.....

[silence]

i find it sad so many people respoonding to this thread have such elementary perspectives on corporatization, money, selling out, etc.

they dont give a fuck about saul's song, they want it to be an advertisement EVERY time the song is played. meaning free advertising.....so saul gets paid, he doesnt get paid every time that song is played, only when it is played on their commercial. People still think of the product when they hear the song without the commercial, therefore completely robbing the song of its meaning and replacing it with a visceral and emotional connection to a commercial product that has absolutely nothing to do with the music he makes, its history, or the people making it etc.

the corporations are asking for saul because they will then be able to be "o.k." with Saul's audience- people who would normally demonize that very corporation.

this is the essence of co-option- they negate their opposition by buying out the people who give power to the opposition.

I find it sad that that this is even defenseable

you dont want to scrub your toilet anymore so youre down to sellout-

thats the whole point- paying people nothing so they have no choice but to give in if they want to have a comfortable life


yall are so easy to control

be silent silence.

insightful

you don't give people enough credit...

imo sauls lyrics should be printed on the box of the shoes, sauls lyrics should replace the surgeon generals warning on everything..... matter fact squeeze sha clack clack in the parental advisory of cd's...I WILL NOT RHYME ON TRACKS, ya dig?

lol @ artists trying to get on sauls level when its apparent they are no where near it...

as gay as it may sound, i don't care... saul is the exception to the rule.... if you don't get that, than you just don't get it.....

ive actually come to the conclusion i give people too much credit...

saul is the exception to the rule?? thats the whole point.... everything he has said in defense of any kind of human rights, anti racism, anti oppression, about human suffering has now been bought.

now nike can say....oh but we have Saul, we know whats up now= "im not racist, i have black friends"

wearing shoes made by slaves sucks, but is pretty unavoidable.....advertising for the company that produces them is a whole different story....

and hes not just advertising for nike, hes advertising for corporatization


im guessing everyone here will defend ozomatli touring the middle east on behalf of the U.S. state department, and say that that tour hasn't weakened their political stance either....

pshh

[chump change]

sauls fanbase is currently white people

it should be the projects... they don't have wi-fi... but they watch tv..

forget the rules, sometimes some messages are extremely important, like to me its impossible to think saul has sold out. the underground needs to respect the man.. and let this tired ass argument go...

and really who the fuck has the right to tell someone who uses the craft as well as the man does what he should be doing..... again it aint about the money...and i don't think nike is now or ever been hurting for "black friends"

and thankfully, they fucked up and picked the coldest motha fuckin artist to grab a mic of the last 3 generations...(i mean really who articulates a message like this man has) and the result is now millions of people worldwide will "hear a list of demands"...

take a look at the 8 year old girls pop lock and dropping and tell me sauls message shouldn't be put out by mass media by any means..

its laughable yall giving him shit for this....

100 years from now, no one will know who sage francis is,
but if there is a god they will be teaching saul williams in middle school lit. classes in Mississippi.....(even if only in feb.)

if a nike commercial helps us get to that point so be it...


if you think he's selling out your a douche- end of story read his books listen to all his music and pull your head out of yo ass.

[silence]

sauls fanbase is currently white people

it should be the projects... they don't have wi-fi... but they watch tv..

forget the rules, sometimes some messages are extremely important, like to me its impossible to think saul has sold out. the underground needs to respect the man.. and let this tired ass argument go...

and really who the fuck has the right to tell someone who uses the craft as well as the man does what he should be doing..... again it aint about the money...and i don't think nike is now or ever been hurting for "black friends"

and thankfully, they fucked up and picked the coldest motha fuckin artist to grab a mic of the last 3 generations...(i mean really who articulates a message like this man has) and the result is now millions of people worldwide will "hear a list of demands"...

take a look at the 8 year old girls pop lock and dropping and tell me sauls message shouldn't be put out by mass media by any means..

its laughable yall giving him shit for this....

100 years from now, no one will know who sage francis is,
but if there is a god they will be teaching saul williams in middle school lit. classes in Mississippi.....(even if only in feb.)

if a nike commercial helps us get to that point so be it...


if you think he's selling out your a douche- end of story read his books listen to all his music and pull your head out of yo ass.

most peeps in the hood dont got wi-fi....in their house.....you act like mufuckas in the hood dont have access to computers....its harder than typing on your new g5 in your living room, 30 minutes at the local library aint shit, but they do...

its not his message being put out.....its a shoe

100 years from now, no one will know who anyone is...

and i think hes selling out because doing a nike commercial would be the epitomy of selling out.....selling your art for money in a way that has nothing to do with your art....

as if cats are gonna buy his nikes and get enlightened....

its called hegemony.... his message gets completely diluted....if you dont think that then youre not being honest with yourself

no corporation would pay someone to take them down...they pay people to make that not happen,

im not dissing his earlier work, im not saying he aint skilled and thats the sad part...

[chump change]

Your so far off on your assumption of me, so yea I'll just let that part go...

But really you don't know what your talking about, I wanna see oprah have saul on and put his work in her book club... :) letter to oprah are a must read.

And yes people will know who saul williams is in a hundred years, he is one of the greatest poets of our age... Come on man get off it the dudes work is taught in african lit classes in college it will trickle down trust. Would it be so bad if saul was the new trend to follow?

Really You haven't even waited for the backlash that will come from the far right because of this. You gonna defend him then? Or tell him he shouldn't have done it in the first place?

(Ok guys/girls I'll stop now, I shoulda stopped earlier but I'm trying)

[Brougham33]

-The word "slave" is being thrown around carelessly here.

-Silence is an awesome poster.

-100 years from now, no one will know who anyone is.