Philaflava.com ::

truthaddict wrote:Blackthought is good no doubt, but I don't think he would even make a top 30 list if I really thought about it.

No way. He easily earned top 25 status, but approaching closer and closer each year he still stands.

My guess is most people here don't love Dangermouse as a hip-hop producer, but I kind of wish that Black Thought/Dangermouse album came to fruition. I would love to hear Black over some Ghetto Pop Life style beats.

Whenever he spits a verse live he kills it on some freestyle type ish

He was insane on the Illadelph Halflife album



.

pradadon wrote:Not sure about you guys, but I generally have a hard time really making a concrete top 10 of all time list. I pretty much know the first 5, but the next 5 usually gives me a problem if I am trying to be definite.

That being said, I think I would have to put Thought in the top 10. Obviously, The Roots are not a mainstream type of act, but when having this conversation over the weekend with a bunch of dudes from around the way, some people were really shocked that I said he was top 10. Even on here a few weeks back people were saying someone like Cam is top 10, which many of the dudes from around the way agreed with. Don't get me wrong, I love Cam and he does have mad flavor and style, but do people honestly think he is a better MC than Black Thought? I guess people really do.

I have been listening to that new Roots album and Thought just kills every verse on that shit. He has been killing shit for damn near 20 years. Does their "underground" staus hurt his placement in people's GOAT lists?

black thought isn't in my top 10, but he's near there and thats no diss to him or anything like that, because i think he's sick wit them bars and proper underated, he's sick

Philaflava wrote:BT lacks the charisma many people want in a top 10 emcee, but he doesn't lack the catalog at this point. Redman is the exact opposite. Has charisma for days but a catalog that has been simply forgettable for the pats 12 years and shows no signs of changing that.

Agreed with this.

Will prolly get backlash for this, but for me BT is kinda a much superior Talib Kweli. Before he comes on I basically know exactly what I'm going to get. It's almost never better than that, but it's almost never worse than that either. He's more insanely consistent than anything else. Kweli is the same way.
People like Redman and or Mos are the exact opposite of this. Maybe Big Boi would be a better example than Kweli. I'd describe him as "consistent" more than anything else, also.

I think the issue here boils down to craft vs art.

As a craftsman, Black Thought is top 10.

As an artist? It just depends on your perspective. I'd probably put him in the top 20. Maybe.

PopeyeJones wrote:

Philaflava wrote:BT lacks the charisma many people want in a top 10 emcee, but he doesn't lack the catalog at this point. Redman is the exact opposite. Has charisma for days but a catalog that has been simply forgettable for the pats 12 years and shows no signs of changing that.

Agreed with this.

Will prolly get backlash for this, but for me BT is kinda a much superior Talib Kweli. Before he comes on I basically know exactly what I'm going to get. It's almost never better than that, but it's almost never worse than that either. He's more insanely consistent than anything else. Kweli is the same way.
People like Redman and or Mos are the exact opposite of this. Maybe Big Boi would be a better example than Kweli. I'd describe him as "consistent" more than anything else, also.

Kweli has never been considered a fierce lyricist. He never really made anyone go . He was apart of the Rawkus era where it was okay to be soft as long as you had a cool beat behind you.

There is footage of ciphers with Black Thought, Mos Def, Pharoahe, Eminem, ______ any Rawkus affiliate from the 90's and Black Thought completely blows them to smithereens. Technicality is BT's cling to this Top 10 shit. There isn't much that is technical about Kweli other than he is technically a bitch for crying when that chick slapped him on video a few years back.

Philaflava wrote:

PopeyeJones wrote:

Philaflava wrote:BT lacks the charisma many people want in a top 10 emcee, but he doesn't lack the catalog at this point. Redman is the exact opposite. Has charisma for days but a catalog that has been simply forgettable for the pats 12 years and shows no signs of changing that.

Agreed with this.

Will prolly get backlash for this, but for me BT is kinda a much superior Talib Kweli. Before he comes on I basically know exactly what I'm going to get. It's almost never better than that, but it's almost never worse than that either. He's more insanely consistent than anything else. Kweli is the same way.
People like Redman and or Mos are the exact opposite of this. Maybe Big Boi would be a better example than Kweli. I'd describe him as "consistent" more than anything else, also.

Kweli has never been considered a fierce lyricist. He never really made anyone go . He was apart of the Rawkus era where it was okay to be soft as long as you had a cool beat behind you.

There is footage of ciphers with Black Thought, Mos Def, Pharoahe, Eminem, ______ any Rawkus affiliate from the 90's and Black Thought completely blows them to smithereens. Technicality is BT's cling to this Top 10 shit. There isn't much that is technical about Kweli other than he is technically a bitch for crying when that chick slapped him on video a few years back.

, and,

if you ever doubt BT's skillz, revisit:

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top ten??...most def

Philaflava wrote:

PopeyeJones wrote:

Philaflava wrote:BT lacks the charisma many people want in a top 10 emcee, but he doesn't lack the catalog at this point. Redman is the exact opposite. Has charisma for days but a catalog that has been simply forgettable for the pats 12 years and shows no signs of changing that.

Agreed with this.

Will prolly get backlash for this, but for me BT is kinda a much superior Talib Kweli. Before he comes on I basically know exactly what I'm going to get. It's almost never better than that, but it's almost never worse than that either. He's more insanely consistent than anything else. Kweli is the same way.
People like Redman and or Mos are the exact opposite of this. Maybe Big Boi would be a better example than Kweli. I'd describe him as "consistent" more than anything else, also.

Kweli has never been considered a fierce lyricist. He never really made anyone go . He was apart of the Rawkus era where it was okay to be soft as long as you had a cool beat behind you.

There is footage of ciphers with Black Thought, Mos Def, Pharoahe, Eminem, ______ any Rawkus affiliate from the 90's and Black Thought completely blows them to smithereens. Technicality is BT's cling to this Top 10 shit. There isn't much that is technical about Kweli other than he is technically a bitch for crying when that chick slapped him on video a few years back.

ZOMG talib kweli crieeeeeeeeedddddd!!!

you realize I don't disagree with anything you wrote, right?

I think thun's craftsman distinction is right. For me BT and Talib (and big boi for that matter) are better described as craftsmen than artists. Talib is a vastly inferior craftsman, nobody is arguing that. For me, I just think all three of them rely pretty heavy on formula. I listen to BT and I don't really listen to Kweli (BT's formula is simply more well executed).

this is all ughh though. whatever. different tastes.

Great thread idea, I've had this conversation more than once. He's top 15-20 WITHOUT QUESTION. As far as top 10? It all depends on what you're using as qualifiers
Relevance?
Lyrical content?
Cadence/Delivery?
Breath control?
Charisma/believability?
Stage presence?
Versatility?
Originality?
Consistency?
Personally, I think he has all of those in spades.


At any given time my top ten consists of the obvious greats:

Nas
Kool G Rap
Rakim
Big
Big Daddy Kane
Pharoahe Monch
GZA

With a few rotating slots, depending on mood, it's one of these guys.

Kool Keith
MF DOOM
Del
Sean Price
Black Thought


The man can rap his ass off and he's one of the few MC's that has actually gotten BETTER as his career has progressed.

The Tipping Point was one of their poppiest albums but Thought actually beasted that whole shit.
The Web is one of the best I-Rap-Better-Than-You-I-Dare-You-To-Step-To-Me songs of all time. And there are a lot of them.

The first nigga that move, or disturb the goove
I'm a have y'all flicks on the evening news
Play y'all part - get on y'all P's and Q's
And when y'all think Thought, be prepared to lose
Bring money to spend and somebody to lend
And some worthwhile money not twenties and tens
Get took for your tuck right in front of your 'hens
Who coulda help you nigga, not none of ya friends
Because, I put a black fist under ya chin
Have your physical remains found under the pen
If I'm coming up in the place, I'm coming to win
Wasn't in it for a minute, now I'm dumbin' again

I'm a decorated vet, I regulate and wreck
Never hesitated yet, I'm gettin' heavy weighted checks
If you would dare ask if I'm dedicated - yes
I spit, live rounds that would penetrate a vest
Nigga, take ya seats I'm a demonstrate a test
How to freak the beats, so gangsta fresh
And it thump, from the east coast to Bangladesh
Big bank, willy gank smoke the thing to death

I mean, damn.

Thought Black Tuesday. Happy Birthday to one of the best. One day I happen to think Tariq is top 10 and in a different mood I can't see him in the top 30.

But man, do I love him??!!! Absolutely!! Regardless of his position in anyone's (including mine) list, he still is one of the most amazing MCs of all time. Without a doubt.

This thread is pure comedic gold.

Top 30???????

Nah I'm bugging lol. 30 is a lock but I can rip off 15 that I think are better and then turn around and tell you why I think he is better than all of them. He's an anomaly in that sense.

Curious to see your 15.

Rakim
Nas
Biggie
Prodigy
G Rap
3 stacks
Ghost
Big L
Jay
Eminem
Jada
Scarface

No order obviously and that's about where I have to stop although I may be missing one or two. So yeah, 15 is even a chore.
Again, I could also tell you why he is better than most of this list too in many ways. Like I said, it's a mood thing. But if I had a gun to my head, I think he is bottom half of the top 10.

Plus I was kinda fucked up last night because I was drinking during the game and it took like 3 hours to play 3 innings.

Your opinion is yours and obviously there is no right answer. But for the sake of the thread let me say I don’t know how you could put Jada, L or Em over him. None of them have had the longevity or consistency as Black Thought. That has to mean something because say Big L didn’t die and for 15 years he made underwhelming music. He changed up his style and went the route of Fab. Would he still be in your top 10? Now, I’m not mad at your selections at all, but when you said top 30, I felt that was a real knee-jerk reply.

I'm sure I've mentioned it before but the lack of real stand out tracks and certified classic #bangers in Black Thought's catalogue lets him down. He can out rap most rappers from a technical "proper rapping" standpoint and he's very consistent but he doesn't have anything like a Come Clean, TROY, Simon Says, World Is Yours or Sound Of Da Police in his arsenal. Played out as those songs are now, they're classics. Even Jay Electronica has Exhibit C. Someone like Jadakiss has a much more varied discography and while he can't make an album for shit he's got a ton of dope verses on classics tracks spanning 20 years.

There's also the fact that a lot of people find The Roots a bit boring.

Philaflava wrote:Your opinion is yours and obviously there is no right answer. But for the sake of the thread let me say I don’t know how you could put Jada, L or Em over him. None of them have had the longevity or consistency as Black Thought. That has to mean something because say Big L didn’t die and for 15 years he made underwhelming music. He changed up his style and went the route of Fab. Would he still be in your top 10? Now, I’m not mad at your selections at all, but when you said top 30, I felt that was a real knee-jerk reply.

You're 100% right about the top 30 thing. That was crazy and I needed to be checked for that. Like I said when it comes down to it, I'd probably put him in the bottom half of my top 10.

Yes, career wise and longevity wise Thought is a beast, but what Big L and even Big Pun did in their short time is so stellar that it almost doesn't matter that they don't have the longevity. Their stamp is that strong on the game.

Also, thought for sure Step was coming in here to say AZ, so since he didn't, I have throw his name out there too.

“Yo, who your top five? Jay, Biggie, Pac, NaS... I ain't tryna hear another name if it's not mine.”

step one wrote:I'm sure I've mentioned it before but the lack of real stand out tracks and certified classic #bangers in Black Thought's catalogue lets him down. He can out rap most rappers from a technical "proper rapping" standpoint and he's very consistent but he doesn't have anything like a Come Clean, TROY, Simon Says, World Is Yours or Sound Of Da Police in his arsenal. Played out as those songs are now, they're classics. Even Jay Electronica has Exhibit C. Someone like Jadakiss has a much more varied discography and while he can't make an album for shit he's got a ton of dope verses on classics tracks spanning 20 years.

There's also the fact that a lot of people find The Roots a bit boring.

I get that to many The Roots are boring, but BT has been a notable lyricist outside of the group for years. The fact he never had a real solo career hurts him, but you still have to factor in his catalog. You're right he doesn't have the classics like Jeru or KRS but with the 14 or 15 albums The Roots have done, I'm sure you can agree 5 tracks total are legit bangers. I think you're looking for an anthem of sorts.

Off the top here are some ridic BT/Roots bangers.

Web
Ya'll Know Who
75 Bars
Adrenaline
Clones
100% Dundee
Sections
Thought @ Work
Game Theory
In The Music
Distortion To Static

Now aside from that, how can you listen to these are not put him over Jadakiss? Who by the way, can't make an album to save his life and is ONLY good as a guest raper.

Guerilla Moonsoon Rap
Bird's Eye View
Too Long (Saigon)
Masters of Our Fate (Raekwon)
In The Park (GFK)
Rapid Eye Movement (Pharoahe)
Respiration
Super Lyrical
Reality TV
Extradite (Freddie Gibbs)
Making A Murderer

Nobody is touching him skill wise right now.

Philaflava wrote: Now aside from that, how can you listen to these are not put him over Jadakiss? Who by the way, can't make an album to save his life and is ONLY good as a guest raper.

those are allegations



i would argue jada is more entertaining than BT. punchlines funnier even if they're not more clever.

The ability to make a solid album is only part of the package. It's Masta Ace's strong point but he's not necessarily the best rapper out there.

They all have different strengths and Jada has a helluva lot of memorable verses. Thought's rap style often makes me switch off after a while. I'm pretty sure I've heard all the tracks you listed but can probably only remember how 3 of them sound.

"The ability to make a solid album is only part of the package. It's Masta Ace's strong point but he's not necessarily the best rapper out there."


i dunno, that last album Ace made I couldn't make it all the way through..


kinda surprised there's no LL in the list. he's definitely had some questionable moves in the last few years, but overall
he definitely had a lot of the factors in the list posted above. i still think about this video of him rapping in 1985
to what might have been a crowd unfamiliar with what rapping was and still holding their attention well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TqQ0rLY-Qo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Look up the black thought and method man cypher that just went down on sway’s show. BT kills it

Its a no brainer black thought is a super dope emcee... i hear some of his shit and im like damn he spazzed but ask me to quote him... prolly cant... ask me what his definitive verse or song is... couldnt really tell you... i hate to say it

Ive said this for years too

More importantly though... How fucking further can Meth fall off? God it's fucking painful to see...