Illegally Downloading = Involuntary Manslaughter?

Employee · Post by **Employee** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:17 pm

http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/201 ... onsidered/

On a personal level, I have witnessed the impoverishment of many critically acclaimed but marginally commercial artists. In particular, two dear friends: Mark Linkous (Sparklehorse) and Vic Chestnutt. Both of these artists, despite growing global popularity, saw their incomes collapse in the last decade. There is no other explanation except for the fact that גfansג made the unethical choice to take their music without compensating these artists.

Shortly before Christmas 2009, Vic took his life. He was my neighbor, and I was there as they put him in the ambulance. On March 6th, 2010, Mark Linkous shot himself in the heart. Anybody who knew either of these musicians will tell you that the pair suffered from addiction and depression. They will also tell you their situation was worsened by their financial situation. Vic was deeply in debt to hospitals and, at the time, was publicly complaining about losing his home. Mark was living in abject squalor in his remote studio in the Smokey Mountains without adequate access to the mental health care he so desperately needed.

I present these two stories to you not because Iגm pointing fingers or want to shame you. I just want to illustrate that גsmallג personal decisions have very real consequences, particularly when millions of people make the decision not to compensate artists they supposedly גloveג. And it is up to us individually to examine the consequences of our actions. It is not up to governments or corporations to make us choose to behave ethically. We have to do that ourselves.

I think the whole of the article is well-written and logical, but to essentially blame people who download for an artist taking their own life is absurd.

capable_keL · Post by **capable_keL** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:20 pm

interesting approach and very believable with the right attorney. This story is so much better than breaking down the white black potential of underground rap personalities of the late 1990s.

for the record i was pretty sure justin warfield had more white than asian in him because only a white would rap about acid while holding a guitar case.

B. Ware tha Siniq · Post by **B. Ware tha Siniq** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:21 pm

Employee wrote:
http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/201 ... onsidered/

On a personal level, I have witnessed the impoverishment of many critically acclaimed but marginally commercial artists. In particular, two dear friends: Mark Linkous (Sparklehorse) and Vic Chestnutt. Both of these artists, despite growing global popularity, saw their incomes collapse in the last decade. There is no other explanation except for the fact that גfansג made the unethical choice to take their music without compensating these artists.

Shortly before Christmas 2009, Vic took his life. He was my neighbor, and I was there as they put him in the ambulance. On March 6th, 2010, Mark Linkous shot himself in the heart. Anybody who knew either of these musicians will tell you that the pair suffered from addiction and depression. They will also tell you their situation was worsened by their financial situation. Vic was deeply in debt to hospitals and, at the time, was publicly complaining about losing his home. Mark was living in abject squalor in his remote studio in the Smokey Mountains without adequate access to the mental health care he so desperately needed.

I present these two stories to you not because Iגm pointing fingers or want to shame you. I just want to illustrate that גsmallג personal decisions have very real consequences, particularly when millions of people make the decision not to compensate artists they supposedly גloveג. And it is up to us individually to examine the consequences of our actions. It is not up to governments or corporations to make us choose to behave ethically. We have to do that ourselves.
I think the whole of the article is well-written and logical, but to essentially blame people who download for an artist taking their own life is absurd.

I agree with your sentiment, but I do think I've had some eye-opening moments in terms of seeing artists I thought should have been making a decent living in really messed up financial situations. I definitely don't think it's equivalent to murder/manslaughter by any stretch, as these artists could chose other walks of life to support themselves financially. At the same time, they shouldn't have to. Most people if they're as good at what they do as many rappers/musicians are at what they do, they make a decent living at it. To see musicians/rappers/producers working hard to stay impoverished is pretty fucked up. Especially when so many fans could afford to support and just don't.

Employee · Post by **Employee** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:21 pm

capable_keL wrote:
for the record i was pretty sure justin warfield had more white than asian in him because only a white would rap about acid while holding a guitar case.

Dude still has me vexed and perplexed to this day (nh).

Mindbender Futurama · Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:23 pm

yeah, a bit much.

"suffered from addiction and depression" is

them shits kill more people than a ISP ever will.

yeah it sucks that nobody buys music anymore... but artists can't blame technology for that. they have to use it to their advantage.

Hollywood went 3-D when the internet started raping them.

musicians need to become extra special again so people want to see the show.and you can't do a show if you're dead.

wait *

hologram Tupac*

Dunnnnleavy · Post by **Dunnnnleavy** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:31 pm

that's the one part of the article that really irked me, but it's otherwise a very solid piece.

Dunnnnleavy · Post by **Dunnnnleavy** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:32 pm

Mindbender Futurama wrote:
yeah it sucks that nobody buys music anymore... but artists can't blame technology for that.

actually, they can.

capable_keL · Post by **capable_keL** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:39 pm

artists should accept responsibility for making music that nobody objects to stealing because that's pretty much the same thing they did under a thin veil of perceived talent.

if we're gonna keep it 100

step one · Post by **step one** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:54 pm

Anybody who knew either of these musicians will tell you that the pair suffered from addiction and depression. They will also tell you their situation was worsened by their financial situation. Vic was deeply in debt to hospitals and, at the time, was publicly complaining about losing his home

Getting a normal job obviously not an option then.

Dunnnnleavy · Post by **Dunnnnleavy** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:56 pm

capable_keL wrote:artists should accept responsibility for making music that nobody objects to stealing because that's pretty much the same thing they did under a thin veil of perceived talent.

if we're gonna keep it 100

in many cases...sure, but that's talking about stuff that sold well pre-download era like Candlebox. not everything that's downloaded is on the same plane as Candlebox. Who all bought the El-P album and who downloaded it?

Insisting that artists need to become "extra special" again to attract people to shows, like Mindbender stated, is a bit asinine.

capable_keL · Post by **capable_keL** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:03 pm

not familiar with this candlebox in which you speak but given your background, my dear friend, i assume its white people music

i agree dunny, and i'll see you in a few months

Mindbender Futurama · Post by **Mindbender Futurama** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:14 pm

Dunnnnleavy wrote:
Mindbender Futurama wrote:
yeah it sucks that nobody buys music anymore... but artists can't blame technology for that.
actually, they can.

sure, they CAN. but how futile is that resistance?

are you going to blame basic human evolution for happening too?

if you blame technology like it's your enemy... what the your solution?

destroy technology? remove the internet from planet earth?

i know what you are saying, but grandma and grandpa ain't "winning" by remaining luddites, mang.

if you can't beat 'em, join' em.

Mindbender Futurama · Post by **Mindbender Futurama** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:28 pm

Dunnnnleavy wrote: Insisting that artists need to become "extra special" again to attract people to shows, like Mindbender stated, is a bit asinine.

I don't mean "again"... I mean, artists ALWAYS should be fucking unique enough that you can't duplicate the joy the performer gives with a single MP3 download or a YouTube video clip. People think music is disposable shit in folders you accumulate and then trash, instead of a real world artform where money and time and energy is well worth investing. You know, like a fucking Grateful Dead or Phish fan feels.

I've seen Rick Ross perform. Front row. FOR FREE. But there is NO WAY IN THE FUCKING WORLD I am going to another Rick Ross concert. Because it is NOT special in any way shape or form. Poor performer, sub-par crowd interaction, and the polished and cinematic album experience is nowhere near recreated live.

On the other hand, I've seen the Roots 19 times, and De La Soul about 11 times... ~over the course of twenty years.~ Every single fucking time, they are fresh, unique, special, original, creative... and so forth. I have their t-shirts, videos, CDs, cassettes, I have a few Questlove drumsticks concert souvenirs, for fuck sakes.

when everyone is style biting and trend hopping and acting all follow fashion, they all suck ass and almost nobody will care for very long about your shit. because it IS shit.

I may be of the minority opinion, but I like people like Sade and Fiona Apple. They're like "I'll kinda sorta meet you all half way, maybe... but I WON'T sacrifice my fucking artistic dignity to appease the masses and the modern ways of the world, especially if it's not parallel to my nature."

Sade don't need to get on Twitter all day and Ustream her band practices (but I'd watch if she did

)

and when Sade came to Toronto, she filled up the ACC. that's at least 20,000 people coming to have a possibly once-in-a-lifetime experience.

now i know most artists aren't on Sade/Bjork/Fiona/D'Angelo level... but I think they should STRIVE to be. and i know nobody but a few artists could survive only touring every 10 years like Sade, but still... the point is: BE SPECIAL, and maybe people WILL value your music enough to give you enough money to keep you out of depression and addiction and poverty.

for a hip hop equivalent? the first person that came to mind was Cormega.

and last time Cormega was in Toronto, he sold out a 1000 person venue and had the walls shaking from cats screaming his lyrics.

battlecatmeowstab212 · Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:35 pm

Dunnnnleavy wrote:
capable_keL wrote:artists should accept responsibility for making music that nobody objects to stealing because that's pretty much the same thing they did under a thin veil of perceived talent.

if we're gonna keep it 100
in many cases...sure, but that's talking about stuff that sold well pre-download era like Candlebox. not everything that's downloaded is on the same plane as Candlebox. Who all bought the El-P album and who downloaded it?

Sounds like someone didn't read the ?uestlove article on the top-17 Candlebox deep cuts.

Employee · Post by **Employee** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:36 pm

battlecatmeowstab212 wrote:Candlebox deep cuts.

GUCCI CONDOMS · Post by **GUCCI CONDOMS** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:38 pm

word that's sad and shit, but who are these people to me and why would I pay them money for something I can get for free?

Reggie · Post by **Reggie** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:37 pm

The article makes a salient point because, prior to the twenty-first century, artists working in all media were the most respected, highest-paid people in the world. The music industry was a great system which helped keep all working musicians paid and comfortable. And now the listeners have circumvented that system to take advantage! It is as if each of us held the trigger on the gun that killed whats-his-name and some-other-guy.

Dunnnnleavy · Post by **Dunnnnleavy** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:06 pm

capable_keL wrote:not familiar with this candlebox in which you speak but given your background, my dear friend, i assume its white people music

i agree dunny, and i'll see you in a few months

totes, uber-white, brah...this is what white people gave cash to in the 90s...

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7mICybM1sRY?ve ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7mICybM1sRY?version=3&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

maybe if i substituted Candlebox with Bell Biv Devoe? as long as you see my point.

Mindbender...you're a space alien.

the article Employee posted discussed this excuse for downloading wrote:Artists can make money on the road (or its variant גArtists are richג). The average income of a musician that files taxes is something like 35k a year w/o benefits. The vast majority of artists do not make significant money on the road. Until recently, most touring activity was a money losing operation. The idea was the artists would make up the loss through recorded music sales. This has been reversed by the financial logic of file-sharing and streaming. You now tour to support making albums if you are very, very lucky. Otherwise, you pay for making albums out of your own pocket. Only the very top tier of musicians make ANY money on the road. And only the 1% of the 1% makes significant money on the road. (For now.)

I don't have a problem with downloading as long as you don't back it up with any excuses and just admit it's in your self-interest to save money and find the easy link. bam, case closed.

Mindbender Futurama · Post by **Mindbender Futurama** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:22 pm

thanks brah :grap:

i been trying to tell folks that long time now :ff:

and music is fucked. both the industry and the artform itself. :nut:

but it's still probably never been a better time to be a musician :kanyeshrug:

music is out of control

chiefbombpro · Post by **chiefbombpro** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:25 pm

Some of us who have families, rent and food to put on the table can't afford to spend as much on entertainment as we would like to. Should we stay oblivious to your music or download it and at least pass the word around. I don't go around burning discs of shit I've downloaded though.
If it's dope and I can buy it, I will.

Dunnnnleavy · Post by **Dunnnnleavy** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:37 pm

chiefbombpro wrote:Some of us who have families, rent and food to put on the table can't afford to spend as much on entertainment as we would like to. Should we stay oblivious to your music or download it and at least pass the word around. I don't go around burning discs of shit I've downloaded though.
If it's dope and I can buy it, I will.

Exactly. It's in your self-interest to not buy everything you listen to you. The article's main point is to convince people while downloading does subtract money from artists it is a moral and ethical issue, and that the government need not get involved.

Tired & Broke · Post by **Tired & Broke** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:44 pm

According to this article, Ive killed hella artists. Black on Black crime over here, the cycle continues.

Moolah · Post by **Moolah** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:53 pm

I'm more than ok with the fact that it's now extremely difficult to earn millions of dollars by making music.

Dunnnnleavy · Post by **Dunnnnleavy** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:12 pm

Tired & Broke wrote:According to this article, Ive killed hella artists. Black on Black crime over here, the cycle continues.

Post/Username combo, obv!

jredd109 · Post by **jredd109** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:34 pm

i've purchased more than my share of music over the years. as stated before in this thread, with a growing family, a house and bills i just dont have the disposable income to spend on music. i also don't really download much either, but i will try to get something off the net if i'm interested in it. if it's good, i'll buy the album when i have the means.

these days, eight out of ten times the entire album isn't worth the purchase, in which case the artist would have been ripping me off had i purchased it.

i think more artists need to use the 'pay what you can' route for downloading music. cut out all the middle men that drive the cost of retail music purchases up and put their music out there themselves. i think you would find people would be more than willing to kick in 2-3-5$ or more if the product was worth it. is that not better than getting nothing, or whatever percentage of retail sales they get?

GUCCI CONDOMS · Post by **GUCCI CONDOMS** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:46 pm

I never pay for music and never will again under any circumstance, but most people I know buy all their music from iTunes....

isn't this not really a big issue anymore, because of iTunes?

Shiftshock · Post by **Shiftshock** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:56 pm

LOL @ a crack head washed up musician kill himself. On the fact he has to much pride to get a job at k-mart

im downloading even more music now.

chiefbombpro · Post by **chiefbombpro** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:03 pm

All musicians I know have a day job. Keep yourself fed while pursuing your dreams.

B. Ware tha Siniq · Post by **B. Ware tha Siniq** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:18 pm

Reggie wrote:The article makes a salient point because, prior to the twenty-first century, artists working in all media were the most respected, highest-paid people in the world. The music industry was a great system which helped keep all working musicians paid and comfortable. And now the listeners have circumvented that system to take advantage! It is as if each of us held the trigger on the gun that killed whats-his-name and some-other-guy.

Blockhead · Post by **Blockhead** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:53 pm

I'm not reading the contents of this thread on purpose as it may result in me killing myself.

Illegally Downloading = Involuntary Manslaughter?

Illegally Downloading = Involuntary Manslaughter?

Re: Illegally Downloading = Involuntary Manslaughter?

Re: Illegally Downloading = Involuntary Manslaughter?