Wu-Tang Clan - A Better Tomorrow (2014 Album)

[TheTed]

RZA just released a Paul Walker tribute song.

https://soundcloud.com/rzawu/destiny-bends-demo-by-the-rza

[EMCEE DARTH MALEK]

damn i was hoping he rap on this. channel his inner sunshine.

[ChaMerZ]

An awful, exploitative song. RZA should be ashamed.

[EMCEE DARTH MALEK]

that's my first impression too but RZA has never been a fake. dude probably showed him respect when other hollywood types didn't.

[step one]

Raekwon 'Lions Paw' freestyle (over Gang Starr 'Mass Appeal' inst)

http://www.sharebeast.com/36ra27ydmltq

[glasshandralphie]

but RZA has never been a fake.

Whaaa? RZA is easily the fakest member of the Wu. That's why Ghost, Rae, Deck and U-God have all shitted on him publicly at one point or another.

Aside from the business/finance side of things, think of the 8 Diagrams debacle. The clan wanted 8 Diagrams to be a return to the roots. I even remember the promotional period preceding 8 Diagrams when Steve Rifkind said the mind state for the new album was to take it back to 36 Chambers. Then RZA plugged in his stupid fucking guitars and ruined the album. He, of course, then blamed the failure of the album on Ghost and Rae's openness about their disappointment in the direction of the music. He should have manned the fuck up and admitted he didn't give the group or the fans what they wanted, but instead he pointed at Lil Wayne with an electric guitar and said something to the effect of "see? I was ahead of the game again." Get the fuck out of here, RZA.

As long as RZA is in charge, the clan won't release another great album. RZA never could have produced an album like OBFCL2 nowadays because his head is too far up his ass from hanging with Tarantino and producing for Kanye. RZA wants the clan to be marketed to Hollywood based on the merits of his cinematic compositions. Truth is, fans don't want that shit. At least I don't. I want him to get a fucking SP1200 or an EPS16 and take it back to the basics. Too much to ask for, certainly, but at the very least he should take the music back to their grimy days. Maybe then Rae won't be worried so much about the money.

[AWAE]

rza owes you nothing you retard

[glasshandralphie]

rza owes you nothing you retard

I'm not saying he does, dickface. Although, come to think of it, if he expects my money, then he owes me something worth purchasing.

[drizzle]

As long as RZA is in charge, the clan won't release another great album. .

blatantly false straw man argument

they've tried without rza, it didn't go so hot either. and even if he's a bit misguided and his head is mostly in movies, at this point he seems like the only one who actually cares enough to try to bring them together for an album.

[step one]

Aside from the first run of Wu solo albums, RZA has been wildly inconsistent. Sometimes he goes a bit too far leftfield with mixed results which is understandable. Cant knock him for trying something different. Other times its just been a bit half-assed and shitty.

Would rather just stick with the decent Wu stuff than have them trying to recapture their former glory and keep flopping.

[glasshandralphie]

As long as RZA is in charge, the clan won't release another great album. .

blatantly false straw man argument

they've tried without rza, it didn't go so hot either. and even if he's a bit misguided and his head is mostly in movies, at this point he seems like the only one who actually cares enough to try to bring them together for an album.

I don't think you understand what a straw man argument is, drizzle. Say we were both arguing about abortion. Your position is that it should be legal, and mine that it should be illegal. The conversation may develop as thus:

Drizzle: Abortion should be legal.
Ralphiepup: If we were to abort every pup, we would see the end of all wolf-kind!

See the difference? You stated your position, and I rebutted an argument that was not made by you. In many cases, someone exaggerates their opponent's argument to something far easier to defend against than what they are really saying.

Now, on to the .

I think you're wrong as fuck about the clan members not being able to put out hot shit without RZA steering the ship. OBFCL2 was the best shit to come out of the camp in a long time, and Rae was steering that ship. On the other hand, RZA executive produced Keynote Speaker, and the production on that was pretty terrible at times. The album had some really gay moments of pop-status yearning.

I'm o.k. with RZA doing ALL of the beats on the next album (he's still prolly my GOAT producer), but he should let someone else pick them.

[drizzle]

As long as RZA is in charge, the clan won't release another great album. .

blatantly false straw man argument

they've tried without rza, it didn't go so hot either. and even if he's a bit misguided and his head is mostly in movies, at this point he seems like the only one who actually cares enough to try to bring them together for an album.

I don't think you understand what a straw man argument is, drizzle. Say we were both arguing about abortion. Your position is that it should be legal, and mine that it should be illegal. The conversation may develop as thus:

Drizzle: Abortion should be legal.
Ralphiepup: If we were to abort every pup, we would see the end of all wolf-kind!

See the difference? You stated your position, and I rebutted an argument that was not made by you. In many cases, someone exaggerates their opponent's argument to something far easier to defend against than what they are really saying.

You're absolutely right and I should've explained myself better. Here is what I was implying

Me: will never make another great album because they have drifted far apart as a group, there have been years of resentment between them. Most of their solo careers have stagnated and don't actually seem to interested in working together anymore. At least not in the capacity needed to pull off a proper group effort.

You: As long as RZA is in charge, the clan won't release another great album. RZA never could have produced an album like OBFCL2 nowadays because his head is too far up his ass from hanging with Tarantino and producing for Kanye.

which is still not exactly a proper straw man argument structure but a little better

as far as the actual albums:

RZA had a fairly big hand in OBFCL2. The album went through years of drama and clusterfucks with who is doing what, but despite that he is still listed as one of the executive producers for it. You claim that Rae's steering made it a success, and because it's hard to tell who actually did what in that process I'm not going to disagree.

However, it's easier to tell who did what on Shaolin Vs. Wutang, which was specifically conceived as a clan album without RZA. It ended up as a Rae solo, so it's fair to assume that he was steering the ship there too. The results are add up to about good EP, once you delete the mediocrity and terrible Rick Ross and Jim Jones cameos.

You accuse RZA of gay moments of pop-status yearning, but Rae's work since OBFCL2 has plenty of the same. The difference is that RZA's seem to work for him, to some extent. Producing for Kanye may not be what you or I want from him, but it's a good look for his career. Rae's pop attempts flop and only serve to further alienate his fans. You may have forgotten that he was also on song with Kanye....and Justin Bibier.

As far as the others, let's see.... Ghost's last 3 were mediocre at best. Deck puts out dubstep mixtapes. GZA lectures science classes, hasn't made good music in years. Method Man tries hard, but only really does well in small doses and hasn't put out a solid project in ages. Cappa put out decent shit but nobody cares. Ugod is Ugod.

So to circle back to where we started, singling RZA out as some nefarious boogie man that is the only obstacle between the rest of the clan and a great album blatantly ignores the reality of the wider situation. It's not that RZA doesn't have the album in him, the GROUP doesn't have that album in them. Aside from any personal difficulties they have, they barely even exists as a group anymore. As a buddy put well recently: 'Now it's just a bunch of dudes from the same neighborhood meeting for lunch every few years'

Furthermore, I'd argue that expecting a group of 40 yo man to recapture the raw energy of their hungry youth is just unrealistic on general principle. Let it go, it's never coming back.

[glasshandralphie]

as far as the actual albums:

However, it's easier to tell who did what on Shaolin Vs. Wutang, which was specifically conceived as a clan album without RZA. It ended up as a Rae solo, so it's fair to assume that he was steering the ship there too. The results are add up to about good EP, once you delete the mediocrity and terrible Rick Ross and Jim Jones cameos.

Agreed, but that was also a rush album he used to capitalize on the success of OBFCL2. He also said at one point he was going to give us some different flavors (nh) on that album. I'm sure when OBFCL3 comes out, Rae will come correct again. He's trying to balance giving his old fans what they want to hear with expanding his fan base.

You accuse RZA of gay moments of pop-status yearning

I don't know if it's an accusation...I think it's an irrefutable fact. Also, I'm cool with him producing for whoever, but I think he's forgetting what made him such a great producer. For me, that isn't how many scales he knows, but instead the visceral energy I used to get from his production. Shit was dark and fierce. Don't get me wrong--he doesn't always have to produce that kind of shit. Room Keeps Spinnin' from Keynote Speaker was a great fucking beat, IMO. I just really don't have the faith in his vision over the course of an entire album anymore. 8 Diagrams was full of missteps, and he had complete control over it.

Rae's pop attempts flop and only serve to further alienate his fans. You may have forgotten that he was also on song with Kanye....and Justin Bibier.

I agree, dude. I think F.I.L.A. is going to be a TERRIBLE album. BUT...I don't think he would make Wu album that sounds like that. I think he wants a gritty album from the clan, and wants the pop stardom for his solo shit.

As far as the others, let's see.... Ghost's last 3 were mediocre at best. Deck puts out dubstep mixtapes. GZA lectures science classes, hasn't made good music in years. Method Man tries hard, but only really does well in small doses and hasn't put out a solid project in ages. Cappa put out decent shit but nobody cares. Ugod is Ugod.

Agreed on all fronts.

So to circle back to where we started, singling RZA out as some nefarious boogie man that is the only obstacle between the rest of the clan and a great album blatantly ignores the reality of the wider situation. It's not that RZA doesn't have the album in him, the GROUP doesn't have that album in them. Aside from any personal difficulties they have, they barely even exists as a group anymore. As a buddy put well recently: 'Now it's just a bunch of dudes from the same neighborhood meeting for lunch every few years'

Furthermore, I'd argue that expecting a group of 40 yo man to recapture the raw energy of their hungry youth is just unrealistic on general principle. Let it go, it's never coming back.

I don't expect them to release a 36 Chambers part 2 or anything. That isn't even my favorite album of theirs. But I do think they are capable of giving us something better than 8 Diagrams, and that would require reigning in RZA's tendency to noodle endlessly over his instrumentals with electric guitars and shit. Take as a very small example Unpredictable on 8 Diagrams. When that song was first released as a snippet, it was the hardest fucking beat the Wu had in a long time. What did RZA do with it? He added chicka chicka funk guitar, a Funkadelic chorus, and some electric guitar feedback. The beat was PERFECT when Mathematics (I think) gave it to RZA. Then, RZA put a whole bunch of bullshit on it and sucked (nh) all of the ominous energy out of the song. :(

As a side note, know what else RZA is doing lately that ruins clan songs? CHORUSES. Stop putting a fucking chorus after every damn verse, RZA! The clan's best songs IMO are the ones where at least 5 of them rap back-to-back with no fucking chorus.

These are fixes that can easily be done without the energy of the old days. I know it's too much to ask for them to all get in a shitty studio in the slums and stay there for months until a classic comes out. I get that. But they can still give us a really good album, and, unfortunately, I think RZA is responsible for a lot of their missteps.

[drizzle]

fair enough, that's as close as we'll come to a consensus here anyway. I still think you're putting too much on RZA, but the above is far more reasonable than what you seemed to imply earlier (which is that he's the only thing standing between them and a mid-90s level album)

[glasshandralphie]

I still think you're putting too much on RZA

I hear you, but when someone asks for full creative control and then releases 8 Diagrams, he needs to be ready for the criticism. How do you release a album where half of the songs are bad? Ultimately, I think it all came down to RZA's direction. I think RZA wants to be one of the greatest musicians of all time, and sees the clan as his toolbox for achieving that success. He figures if he can bring the orchestral shit to some of the greatest rappers ever, he will change the face of music. Problem is, these are all street dudes who don't give a fuck for that pompous shit. They want raw beats they get excited about rapping over.

Also, I DO think RZA is the phoniest member of the Wu. I love him as an artist, but he seems like a manipulative dick. I also every time he says some shit like "I haven't reached my full potential because I should be a scientist or an advisor to the president." Dude is so fucking delusional nowadays.

[zombie]

wu tang died for me back in the ealry 90s

[glasshandralphie]

wu tang died for me back in the ealry 90s

Then you've missed out on some great music, dude.

[Mindbender Futurama]

'8 Diagrams' is a "failure" that many great groups will never achieve musically.

It's not a whole bunch of bad music. It's just way beyond what the world needed and wanted from at that time.

It's way better than 'Iron Flag', and more robust than 'The W', even though I certainly prefer 'The W' as a listening experience.

I like you guys.

[EMCEE DARTH MALEK]

8 diagrams is well produced and well conceived outside of that terrible rock crossover single. where it's really hurting is the verses, no one but method man is bringing their A game (and RZA of course)

^^^ ayo glasshand i like the unpredictable beat but haven't heard the leak of which you speak, any chance of an upload?

^^stay warm MB

[ardamus]

As long as RZA is in charge, the clan won't release another great album. .

blatantly false straw man argument

they've tried without rza, it didn't go so hot either. and even if he's a bit misguided and his head is mostly in movies, at this point he seems like the only one who actually cares enough to try to bring them together for an album.

Does Wu-Block count?

[ackbar]

8 diagrams is really not a bad album. it has some good ass songs on it

[SpecialAFFEX]

I haven't heard the W, 8 Diagrams or Iron flag. And I used to be the biggest Wu stan ever. Bought therm all, but never listened to them.

Maybe I get those CD's out and give them a chance.

[illuminati_guy]

the w is really good, i still play it a lot. iron flag had some good shit (uzi, y'all been warned, in the hood), but wasn't great. i think i like 8 diagrams better

[glasshandralphie]

8 diagrams is well produced and well conceived outside of that terrible rock crossover single. where it's really hurting is the verses, no one but method man is bringing their A game (and RZA of course)

^^^ ayo glasshand i like the unpredictable beat but haven't heard the leak of which you speak, any chance of an upload?

^^stay warm MB

Took me a lil while to find it...forgot it was called Thug World at first:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mg9T9Gnveg

Had a different chorus and verse from RZA, too. Dude who uploaded it mixed in Unpredictable at the end..

edit: Also, agreed that Meth is bringing good shit to the albums, but he had some mehhhh shit, too. Ghost's verses were consistently great, tho.

[DLG]

8 diagrams is well produced and well conceived outside of that terrible rock crossover single. where it's really hurting is the verses, no one but method man is bringing their A game (and RZA of course)

this is a factual statement.

[glasshandralphie]

As long as RZA is in charge, the clan won't release another great album. .

blatantly false straw man argument

they've tried without rza, it didn't go so hot either. and even if he's a bit misguided and his head is mostly in movies, at this point he seems like the only one who actually cares enough to try to bring them together for an album.

Does Wu-Block count?

Does it count as what?

[glasshandralphie]

8 diagrams is really not a bad album. it has some good ass songs on it

Great song, but it's too bad...

1. The album version is about 3 minutes too long.

2. That fucking chorus plays in between EVERY VERSE, significantly reducing the replayability of the track.

3. RZA submitted it without a Ghost verse.

4. RZA had a shit verse and mixed his vocals way too high on it.

[glasshandralphie]

8 diagrams is well produced and well conceived outside of that terrible rock crossover single. where it's really hurting is the verses, no one but method man is bringing their A game (and RZA of course)

this is a factual statement.

Nahh. Meth might have perfect attendance in the studio, but his performances were eclipsed by Ghost's (even though we only got 3 verses from him on 8D).

[Mindbender Futurama]

I think RZA mixing his vocals really fucked up on that song had something to do with his fucked up involvement in ODB's death

[glasshandralphie]

I think RZA mixing his vocals really fucked up on that song had something to do with his fucked up involvement in ODB's death

His vocals are off throughout the album, tho.