Jay-Z

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:24 am

For as long as I can remember, I

ANT8U · Post by **ANT8U** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:35 am

Whenever i hear jay-z on a track i'm expectin alot more than what i actually here. definitely overrated - and i dont think he tours much to be as big as he 'is'. know what i'm sayin?

Nl5H · Post by **Nl5H** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:46 am

G.O.A.T. , just because he did it from the ground up, and he would be moreso of a paper champ if he wasn't hot during the biggy and pac time, but he was, and like you said phila, he got better with time. the man can do no wrong in my eyes.

theaggravatedjew · Post by **theaggravatedjew** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:01 am

I think Jay Z is great and #1 right now, but overhyped.

Funk Docta Bombay · Post by **Funk Docta Bombay** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:48 am

I don't like the choices. To me he BECAME the best because over time he did more than other emcees. In 98 he was lucky but he ran with that luck and changed the sound of Hiphop a couple of times over with it through his approach and production choices. Swizz Beats, Timbaland, The Neptunes, Just Blaze, Kanye: whatever producer/sound was "hot" at one point in hiphop you can guarantee that Jay had the illest record over it and in the case of the last 3, he MADE them hot and introduced that sound. Add to the fact that the guy's a top shelf lyricist, has got one hell of a swagger and dropped one of the few genuine classics since 2000 and he's as good a champ as any. He didn't have it in 98 but he earned it.

As for the argument that earlier era cats were iller, I think it's a question of circumstances. Put 05 Jay in 85 or 95 with those beats and that freedom and he'd stand up. I won't dissmiss the guy cuz he happens to be around when most rappers suck.

so I'm voting GOAT, but it's more like Greatest of this era or "contender for" GOAT. Take out the "overhyped" and "good enough to be #1 today" would have been a good spot.

Magneto · Post by **Magneto** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:15 pm

If Biggie was alive, Jay would be an after thought. That's how it always was. It was Biggie, then everybody else (In terms of New York rap). But that doesn't matter, cause Jay was every bit as good as Big was lyrically.

Now as far as I'm concerned, Jay is in my top 6 all-time. I have him ranked higher then Rakim, even. Jay's dropped 2 classics, and very good albums (Vol. 3, Black Album). He's got one of the best flows ever, and is probably one of the only MCs that can rap with anyone and not sound out of place. He could do a song with Imortal Tech. and I wouldn't raise an eye brow (Ok, maybe I would, but he still wouldn't sound out of place).

He's not the illest ever (I have KRS, Kool, Nas, Big and Red ahead of him) but he's definitely worth consideration. It's not outlandish to think he is the best ever to do it.

Cyn0zure · Post by **Cyn0zure** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:47 pm

Hov, can definitely be put in the right place right time category, but for most successful rappers, it goes that way...everyone needs a cosign nowadays...whats funny to me though is that back when jay first got big, especially volume 1 (a very solid album), people saw the sunshine video and just saw him as a jiggy rapper...easily hated on and shit, and now he's the underground's mainstream messiah

SYM · Post by **SYM** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:59 pm

HAHA, I heard the first track he ever spit on. It's amazing seeing where he's at now, and where he was then: spitting a verse on this amaaaazing new jack swing hogwash by High Potent. The evolution alone just makes me appreciate him that much more. I picked overhyped, but still number one.

avalanche · Post by **avalanche** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:07 pm

i went with "Best rapper since Rakim or Kris'

Nav · Post by **Nav** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:09 pm

Overrated. End of debate.

epideMIC · Post by **epideMIC** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:10 pm

I've never fully understood the need to ask whether Jay would've been where he is if Biggie and Pac were still alive. Hey may be, he may not be, who knows. But if he wouldn't be as big, that'd would've been more a function of Biggie and Pac's beef and its ability to overshadow everything else in hip hop than of their talent. Jay is a much better emcee than Pac and is every bit as good as BIG.

To me, he's the GOAT. He's dropped 8 albums, 2 of which are classics (RD & Blueprint), 3 of which are very very good (Vol. 1, BP2, Black Album), 2 of whic hare very good (Vol. 3, Dynasty), and only one dissapointing album (Vol. 2). He's not only stayed at the top of his game and not fallen off over the years, he's evolved his style and gotten better in many ways. No one else has a comparable catalogue.

He's the jack of all trades and master of most. He probably has the most versatile flow ever - like Magneto said, he can rap with anyone and not sound out of place. His wordplay is top notch and is his specialty lyrically. But he's also an excellent third person storyteller when he chooses to be, not far removed from Nas' level (Friend or Foe, Meet the Parents). And he's made some of the most personal, introspective songs in the game - You Must Love Me, Regrets, Where Have U Been, Soon You'll Understand, Song Cry, etc. I find those songs lot more moving than the third person narratives that Nas so brilliantly crafts.

So my vote goes to GOAT.

SoulClap · Post by **SoulClap** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:47 pm

Overrated

ackbar · Post by **ackbar** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:10 pm

Overhyped, but good enough to be #1 today

he's still the best rapper out tho.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:13 pm

ackbar wrote:
Overhyped, but good enough to be #1 today
he's still the best rapper out tho.

To the masses yes. The mainstream and its critics love Jay-Z. He can do no wrong. But does that truly mean he's the best rapper or most popular? We all know people tend to follow popularity.

Nav · Post by **Nav** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:14 pm

Funk Docta Bombay wrote: Put 05 Jay in 85 or 95 with those beats and that freedom and he'd stand up.

Put Jay-Z in 95, put Jay-Z to :

Cypress Hill - III: Temples of Boom
Raekwon - Only Built 4 Cuban Linx
GZA/Genius - Liquid Swords
Goodie Mob - Soul Food
Mobb Deep - The Infamous
KRS-One - KRS-One
Pharcyde - Labcabincalifornia

and you will see, he would just disappear in the crowds :) Maybe I missunderstood your point Funk Docta, but if not, in 95 Jay-Z and his MC-skillz have no place between the best.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:16 pm

BTW, if GZA had charisma and a million dollar marketing plan with RZA-only production he would be the G.O.A.T.

If Ras Kass was 6'0 instead of 4'6 and had Primo produce his entire album and he was an artist on Jive and got Justin Timberlake to do a hook, he'd probably be talked about as being the G.O.A.T.

If Redman wasn't on Def Jam and he dropped albums regularly then he may even be the G.O.A.T.

Fact is, Jay-Z made all the right moves and with that came this bullshit crown.

ackbar · Post by **ackbar** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:22 pm

Nav wrote:
Funk Docta Bombay wrote: Put 05 Jay in 85 or 95 with those beats and that freedom and he'd stand up.
Put Jay-Z in 95, put Jay-Z to :

Cypress Hill - III: Temples of Boom
Raekwon - Only Built 4 Cuban Linx
GZA/Genius - Liquid Swords
Goodie Mob - Soul Food
Mobb Deep - The Infamous
KRS-One - KRS-One
Pharcyde - Labcabincalifornia

and you will see, he would just disappear in the crowds :) Maybe I missunderstood your point Funk Docta, but if not, in 95 Jay-Z and his MC-skillz have no place between the best.

i see your point...
but reasonable doubt is already better than temples of boom, labcabincalifornia and maybe soul food.

ackbar · Post by **ackbar** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:27 pm

Philaflava wrote:BTW, if GZA had charisma and a million dollar marketing plan with RZA-only production he would be the G.O.A.T.

If Ras Kass was 6'0 instead of 4'6 and had Primo produce his entire album and he was an artist on Jive and got Justin Timberlake to do a hook, he'd probably be talked about as being the G.O.A.T.

If Redman wasn't on Def Jam and he dropped albums regularly then he may even be the G.O.A.T.

Fact is, Jay-Z made all the right moves and with that came this bullshit crown.

i get that...but this is the angle that i hate.

to me...picking good beats, CONSISTENTLY making good records, adapting/creating trends, etc. is what makes you the best rapper out. i could give a fuck who can spit "the most john blaze 16" on a street corner. even lil' ray ray from the neighborhood could potentially be the GOAT. if a rapper doesn't have the career (read: albums) to back it up? who gives a fuck.

SYM · Post by **SYM** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:35 pm

for clarification, it always is about being in the right place at the right time.

so let's strip that aspect from mr. carter in this argument, please. it simply makes for empty cases.

epideMIC · Post by **epideMIC** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:38 pm

ackbar and SYMantiks are on point

let's stop looking at "what if" and start looking at "what is"...otherwise you'll get caught up in an endless series of hypotheticals and the debate won't go anywhere

Nav · Post by **Nav** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:39 pm

0k if i reallllly lower my standards we could debate over Pharcyde but Temples Of Boom and Soul Food? Best Cypress and Goodie Mobb album are worse then Reasonable doubt? Illusions and Cell Therapy over D'Evils? You need to re-listen those three records.

epideMIC : Check teh discography of KRS and Rakim, Prince Paul (if he counts), Insight,..:)

Req · Post by **Req** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:50 pm

There is no GOAT, but when the discussion occurs, his name should definitely be brought up

zygmontone · Post by **zygmontone** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:38 pm

epideMIC wrote:ackbar and SYMantiks are on point

GOAT? I don't know. Favorite? By a mile.

Jizzy · Post by **Jizzy** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:07 pm

Jay is definitely one of the best out there at the moment. Its just that he doesnt have that much competition, he knows how to sell records and appeal to the more "underground" of hip hop.

Lance Goodthrust · Post by **Lance Goodthrust** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:13 pm

I don

Patches O'Houlihan · Post by **Patches O'Houlihan** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:34 pm

The whole Jay is nobody without BIG is not as relevant as where would Diddy be without BIG.

btw ...............I had sex with Katie

epideMIC · Post by **epideMIC** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:39 pm

What if what if what if what if...

What if BIG hadn't died? Would he have continued to stay at the top of his game or would he have fallen off? He never lived long enough to prove what Jay has proven - the ability to still be at the top after 8 albums.

ackbar · Post by **ackbar** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:54 pm

Nav wrote:0k if i reallllly lower my standards we could debate over Pharcyde but Temples Of Boom and Soul Food? Best Cypress and Goodie Mobb album are worse then Reasonable doubt? Illusions and Cell Therapy over D'Evils? You need to re-listen those three records.

epideMIC : Check teh discography of KRS and Rakim, Prince Paul (if he counts), Insight,..:)

since when is temples of boom cypress hill's best album???

lol @ check the dicography of insight

Reason · Post by **Reason** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:26 pm

i think you can combine like 4 of the possible things you could've voted for, and have them all still lead to his being the goat

T-Wrex · Post by **T-Wrex** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:50 pm

Jay-Z's been my favorite since Eminem fell off (M.M. LP)..

Jay-Z

What do you think about Jay?

Jay-Z