Slug Defends Saul Williams Against Sage Francis

[Employee]

'd vote for you tom.
i believe and agree with most of the things you say.
plus you're real smooth with the communications.
and i know you'd have a bomb-ass team of advisors.
and as long as you're smooth with it, the advisors don't need to be.
i believe you.

i'm not as articulate as you, but i'll try.

i'm glad i wasn't faced with the choice that saul was faced with.
but i respect him and believe him, so i'm glad he took whatever resources they offered.
i can think of many many people that i would rather not see obtain those resources.

i also believe that saul's fanbase isn't so easily swayed into picking a shoe based off of this commercial.
we can all think of plenty artists that the evil empire could/should exploit.

i also believe that we will see more and more of this.

the old guard at these ad firms, and in these marketting departments of these corporations
are being replaced by younger people that are more diverse with their art intake, and lifestyle.
fans of indie art. fans of rosie perez. fucking art students.

burning these corporations down is not going to happen.
and the governments are busy planning sin.

somebody over there wanted saul for this.
and no one wants to admit that it may be a sign.
everyone wants to immediately assume the worst.

does it make me too much an optimist to think that it takes a while to break it from the inside out?

so that, in 20 years, these places are managed by people who spent their youth
listening to sage, and sonic youth, and saul, and the superfly soundtrack?
maybe the revolution won't be televised because it is invisible to camera's?
i digress. i'm not too smart.

but i believe you tom.



messageboards are awesometastic, every post is like a photo op.

"smile, here comes the picture, click. a humble type of brother so don't play me like a vic."
-grand puba (the one that gets your stinkbox wet)

[Employee]

[Employee]

I'll bow back into this conversation, as I've just woken up and none of my previous feelings have subsided. Sometimes I wake up and regret having had a pissing match the night before. But there are so many things that just aren't sitting well.

Sean,
Everyone seems to be able to state their case for having their music and image co-opted by major corporations in a way where the fans collectively agree that it's ok. What irks me more than Saul (or Aesop, or KRS, or Rakim, or Nas, or Common) having a justification for working with Nike (Sprite, Gap, Taco Bell, McDonalds) is the collective compliance of the community that has supported these artists to the point where Nike even gives a shit about our craft and how they can use it to serve their own purposes. It's gotten to the point where the line between selling out and not selling out is so thin it can be skipped over without notice, concern or revolt. As values continually diminish, no one is allowed to hold any of us up to a moral standard.

I can't speak on the fine details of Saul's situation. I consider him a friend and a good person. Worse things have been done by worse people and they never get scrutinized. I accept that. However, that doesn't make the purpose of this conversation moot. We deserve to be challenged from time to time due to the art we involve ourselves in and with the success we've garnered through touching people's hearts (or whatever other body part you choose.)

We had a similar conversation on this forum when I openly rejected having my tour be sponsored by Scion. You said something like, "Oh man, if they asked me to do that I would." And in this here thread you're saying you would have worked with Nike if they asked you as well. But here's what particularly disturbs me...it's like your sticking your toe in the water and getting the folks ready for a leap even you aren't quite ready to make. You are far more popular than me or Saul Williams. You sell double (or triple) the records, you sell out twice the amount of shows, you have accessible music, and the girls are going wild for ya. You have done some amazing things. But please don't act like you'd allow yourself to get exploited if only the opportunity was there. It's all around you. Don't toy with selling out or pussy foot around the topic. It's all for the taking (or giving) in your case.

If you're excited to be used and exploited by a conglomerate, and your only requirement is that their brand doesn't hurt your child (like Soda Pop companies,) then the opportunity is screaming at you from board rooms around the nation. If you don't believe it, then let me hunt them out for you so that I can get a finder's fee. Of course, I still don't see the reason for it but that's not for me to debate once the leap has been made. We've been having this theoretical debate for years and all it's amounting to is a grumble of 10 million voices that say, "Who cares, man? I love my Nikes."

Right.

[Employee]

Email from Saul:

"I'm still on my phone and haven't checked the link u sent but I am
having some questions and thoughts about ur thread as I drive through
the New Mexican countryside. Feel free to post:

1. Is white privilege ever mentioned or the varying modes of dissent in
different communities? Does anyone acknowledge that my largely white
underground fanbase may be upset by the ad but that a grand majority of
the people my music addresses may not have had me under their radar
until now?... Including those who would most readily benefit from
'reparations', who are now swopping airforce ones online, and have given
little thought to corporate integrity suddenly are exposed to these
ideas and more through my work?

Two quotes come to mind here:

"If I contradict myself it is because I contain multitudes"

Walt Whitman

"I contradict myself? I contradict myself!"
Oscar Wilde

2. The next thing that comes to mind is cynicism and those who define
their political consciousness by mere dissent and what they say no to
versus what they are open to and the power of their Yes. I think of this
primarily because when I spoke to a Nike exec last week and asked if
they were aware of the hate they get from the thinking few, which was
really my way of bringing up Nikeresponsibility.com to see how real it
was, I was surprised by the steps they are taking and the people they
are bringing in to help them shift their corporation. This has made me
contemplate how the activist responds when their rally cry is heard. Are
we prepared to show love to those who begin to correct their wrongs or
do we damn them to hell? As an 'AfricanAmerican', I've had to learn to
be very forgiving towards people who in many cases simply knew no better
and didn't realize the weight of their comments or actions on me.

By the way, what struck me the most about visiting the Nike headquarters
was not that they were corporate vampires, but they were all ex-
athletes and coaches who had gotten injured or retired and started
working with Nike. That whole 'did u see the game?' mentality was the
main vibe of the whole place. Very different from a corporate empire as
I might imagine. No suits, just basketball hoops in offices, blaring
sports center moniters, and story swopping about their kids playing for
whatever school and winning or losing. They were a bunch of jocks who
thought my music was great to work out to and then found that it
resonated a little deeper with each listen. I didn't know it was founded
by two track stars (one was Prefontaines coach and is credited with
bringing/popularizing jogging to the states) who were hired by Tiger, a
japanese training shoe company, who eventually left the company to start
their own using their Tiger connections..thus the asian factory
connection. Ofcourse the cultural norm in other lands, in particular in
regards to working age and hours can be pretty fucked outside of our
zone of priviege. And the fact is, smaller US companies benefit from
these practices now more than Nike, but because of their size and
dimension, Nike is one of the few who can actually make demands to the
governments of these countries to change their ways, which is the only
way to truly end child labor or sweatshops when it is a cultural norm.
It was interesting to learn of how most of the higher ups started paying
attention to this only because their kids started asking questions. So
then they started asking questions and are now in the middle of a major
shift, just like the record industry, just like America. Just like me, I
might add. I've gone from saying fuck you to those I disagree with to
actually sitting down with them and realizing that I could influence
their behavior better through dialogue. An example of this is how
Kanye's Diamonds are from Sierre Leone song came about. It was
originally entitled Diamonds are Forever, but when my producing partner,
Tiffany Persons sent a treatment that I wrote of a doc we were then
working on about the relationship between the attrocities surrounding
diamond mines in Africa and Hip Hop and the African American population,
he actually called us saying he had no clue and could we come give him a
crash course. So we did. First he changed the name of the song, then he
had me come sit with him and Hype Williams as they mapped out a video
tracing a diamond from a mine to a showcase. Years earlier, I had had a
pretty big argument with my girlfriend of the time, a friend of Hypes,
who had invited him to dinner with us, where I had refused to say a word
to him cause I couldn't stand his effect on hip hop through his
affiliation with puffy and such...

Anyway, back to my Nike tour, i actually couldn't believe how much money
sports generate, which is great when I remember that just last year I
was thinking of national sports teams being possibly the best
alternative to war. People need something to do with their nationalism.
Anyway, as u can see, I learned and am learning a lot through this
little gesture of saying yes where in the past I would have said no.

Its funny cause my new year resolution back in 2002 was to say yes to
whatever comes, cause I had spent previous years saying No to so much
and I wanted to see if I could trust the possibility of the universe
bringing things my way for my growth and spiritual prosperity rather
than for the sake or test of my rejection. That year, the thing I said
yes to was the TV show Girlfriends, a UPN sitcom produced by Kelsey
Grammar. Not only did I learn not to judge a book by its cover by
meeting and interacting with the super-smart and funny women who created
and star in the show, who raised politicized questions behind the scenes
about their characters and lines in ways I never imagined they would,
but I also met, Persia, whose boyfreind I played on the show, and is now
my wife (its been 30 days!).

This year my new years resolution was to accept greater responsibility.
The definition of responsibility that I like best has primarily to do
with handling greater amounts of energy. To me, this involves not shying
away from anything from responding to emails or song liscensing requests
even though the repercussions may demand more of my attention than I
feel like giving. In the case of this commercial which uses my song, I
really do believe that its my song that's using the commercial. And no I
do not stand behind all the harm that major corporations can and have
done to humanity and that also goes for Apple (which aint green) and
countless others that I believe we will make more responsible for their
actions through dialogue such as this and by the mere evolution of our
awareness. And yes, also by the power of our dissent. Creative dissent
makes the biggest waves it seems. But sometimes saying No or Fuck you is
way to easy when we ostracize a world of change we could create. Blah
Blah. Pull this van over I gotta piss.

Grippo,

Saul"

[ardamus]

if thats how Saul wants to get his money, then let him do so. i don't see what the problem is.

[wheels]

if thats how Saul wants to get his money, then let him do so. i don't see what the problem is.

Sellout

[Employee]

don't see what the problem is.

Sage feels he is
God.

[ardamus]

if thats how Saul wants to get his money, then let him do so. i don't see what the problem is.

Sellout

no one said shit when Aesop Rock did it is all i'm sayin'. or better yet, when KRS had his song played in a Nike commercial. how about Talib doing a commercial for college basketball? The Roots when they did tours for Levi's. really.....what's the difference?

[Philaflava]

can emoticons sum up this whole thing for those who don't care enough to read the letters?

[wheels]

if thats how Saul wants to get his money, then let him do so. i don't see what the problem is.

Sellout

no one said shit when Aesop Rock did it is all i'm sayin'. or better yet, when KRS had his song played in a Nike commercial. how about Talib doing a commercial for college basketball? really.....what's the difference?

I was fuckin with you, I couldn't care less about this and I bet sage is the only one who really cares at all. Like, what kind of sponsorship could sage francis pull down? It would have to be beard related

[Mindbender Futurama]

if thats how Saul wants to get his money, then let him do so. i don't see what the problem is.

Sellout

no one said shit when Aesop Rock did it is all i'm sayin'. or better yet, when KRS had his song played in a Nike commercial. how about Talib doing a commercial for college basketball? really.....what's the difference?

there is none.

and i just learned that KRS-One only agreed to do "The Revolution is Basketball" commercial when Gil-Scott Heron accompanied him in the studio, and it was produced by Hank Shocklee from the Bomb Squad.

not exactly selling out.

at the time, I hated KRS for it. now, not so much.

it's not 1995 anymore. you don't have to change yourself at all to get down with the corporations. they actually NEED the realest artists to get any credibility these days.

Saul Williams: the new pop sensation, with Hot 9-7 rotation

more possible than ever before

[Employee]

can emoticons sum up this whole thing for those who don't care enough to read the letters?

Why do you pretend to be disinterested?

[ardamus]

if thats how Saul wants to get his money, then let him do so. i don't see what the problem is.

Sellout

no one said shit when Aesop Rock did it is all i'm sayin'. or better yet, when KRS had his song played in a Nike commercial. how about Talib doing a commercial for college basketball? really.....what's the difference?

I was fuckin with you, I couldn't care less about this and I bet sage is the only one who really cares at all. Like, what kind of sponsorship could sage francis pull down? It would have to be beard related

nah, i knew you were, i just had to point that out though. and what Saul wrote was an intelligient and thorough response. the dude worked with a top notch producer in the industry on his first debut, has toured prestigious schools around, appeared in a heavily viewed sitcom show as well as an award-winning indie film, worked with a multi-platinum/well-known producer on his last venture, and etc. he was already exposed out there from the jump to the point where Nike was interested to work with him. and it sounds he checked them out enough to make his decision.

[Mindbender Futurama]

can emoticons sum up this whole thing for those who don't care enough to read the letters?

Sage =
sean =
Saul =

basically.

[blastmaster]

Morals and integrity dont put gas in the tour bus. Good for Saul.

[wheels]

I want to see you doing every ad that comes your way once you blow. Like Always with wings, or that infomercial where they talk about poop for an hour with that creepy guy Klee who describes his daughter's logs. I want you to do appearances with fitness celebrity John Basedow

I would find that infinitely more entertaining and respectable than someone who refuses to "sell out" whatever that means.

[Philaflava]

can emoticons sum up this whole thing for those who don't care enough to read the letters?

Why do you pretend to be disinterested?

Pretend? Why would I be so interested? I'm not like you where if I dislike someone I study their every move. Truthfully, I could careless about Sage's beef with iTunes or whatever this is. I thought emoticons would make this thread worthwhile.

[Employee]

I'm not like you where if I dislike someone I study their every move..

Sure, cool guy.

[ape9]

but I also met, Persia, whose boyfreind I played on the show, and is now
my wife (its been 30 days!).

damn.. Saul married Persia from Girlfriends.... NICE!!!

[Random Sample]

Sage has always looked down upon artists who sell their music to big corporations for advertising. If he thinks that selling a song to Nike is going to bastardize the art form, then he hasn't been paying attention for the past 20 years.

I can understand not wanting to do it for the reason that you don't agree with the corporations business practices, and you don't wish to support them in their ways, or sell products. I don't think that you should put the next man down for doing it. You don't know what they need and believe to be the best possible outlet for them.

Hypothetical question here Sage. What if a corporation would pay money to a charity of your choice. Would you let them use your song? Would that still be bastardizing the art form? You would be doing something good, wouldn't you?

[Philaflava]

I'm not like you where if I dislike someone I study their every move..

Sure, cool guy.

Okay, Mike Walker.

[Trademark]

Sage needs to make better music. He is because no one has asked him.

[chump change]

saul is that dude and really just one of those true rare artists that only comes along so often, and if he went this route you can bank that it was on his own terms and he believes what he is doing is helping....

so i don't think sage has the credentials to call him out on this...

1. Is white privilege ever mentioned or the varying modes of dissent in
different communities? Does anyone acknowledge that my largely white
underground fanbase may be upset by the ad but that a grand majority of
the people my music addresses may not have had me under their radar
until now?... Including those who would most readily benefit from
'reparations', who are now swopping airforce ones online, and have given
little thought to corporate integrity suddenly are exposed to these
ideas and more through my work?

dude is the truth

just seems sage didn't get the memo that there are somethings that us white boys will never understand and we don't have the right to talk about...

the guy wrote sha clak clak... come on.....

unless he's just a hoe and fooling everyone then sage

"stop hating, get money"

[Brougham33]

Good for Saul. Liked this...

But sometimes saying No or Fuck you is
way to easy when we ostracize a world of change we could create.

Two sides to everything. Sage often feels his side is the only side. That is part of the reason why he is suscessful and part of the reason why everyone looks at him like some condescending asshole.

[ape9]

- Bro! you're a total sell out!!!

- nah playa gotta get that cheese...

[Kalistoga]

"Who cares, man? I love my Nikes."

[Crooked S]

saul is that dude and really just one of those true rare artists that only comes along so often, and if he went this route you can bank that it was on his own terms and he believes what he is doing is helping....

so i don't think sage has the credentials to call him out on this...

1. Is white privilege ever mentioned or the varying modes of dissent in
different communities? Does anyone acknowledge that my largely white
underground fanbase may be upset by the ad but that a grand majority of
the people my music addresses may not have had me under their radar
until now?... Including those who would most readily benefit from
'reparations', who are now swopping airforce ones online, and have given
little thought to corporate integrity suddenly are exposed to these
ideas and more through my work?

dude is the truth

just seems sage didn't get the memo that there are somethings that us white boys will never understand and we don't have the right to talk about...

the guy wrote sha clak clak... come on.....

unless he's just a hoe and fooling everyone then sage

"stop hating, get money"

Good post.

I think the fact that Nike is going after Saul, rather than Souljah Boy for their commercials is a good sign.

[dirtybird]

fuck guys--I don't want to be poor--and right now I'm struggling...I don't want to be scrubbing toilets forever...if Nike wants my song---I say fuck yeah---1. With my song I was being myself--my song my soul--not Nike's no matter how much $ they throw down 2. I'm using them man---if Nike's money can line my pockets--that's the shit-

as a consumer--don't buy the bullshit

[Mindbender Futurama]

saul is that dude and really just one of those true rare artists that only comes along so often, and if he went this route you can bank that it was on his own terms and he believes what he is doing is helping....

so i don't think sage has the credentials to call him out on this...

1. Is white privilege ever mentioned or the varying modes of dissent in
different communities? Does anyone acknowledge that my largely white
underground fanbase may be upset by the ad but that a grand majority of
the people my music addresses may not have had me under their radar
until now?... Including those who would most readily benefit from
'reparations', who are now swopping airforce ones online, and have given
little thought to corporate integrity suddenly are exposed to these
ideas and more through my work?

dude is the truth

just seems sage didn't get the memo that there are somethings that us white boys will never understand and we don't have the right to talk about...

the guy wrote sha clak clak... come on.....

unless he's just a hoe and fooling everyone then sage

"stop hating, get money"

co-signed

[ardamus]

my thing is you gotta watch how you judge people because once someone calls you out on something and you judge people constantly for their actions or whatnot due to whatever reasons.....its not a good look......