do white people deserve to share with us this rap culture?

General hip-hop discussion.

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indianaJ0nes
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Post by indianaJ0nes »

This might have been mentioned but i didn't wade through the entire post history of this thread, however something conspiracy should keep in mind: This isn't as much a color issue as you would like to make it, its more so the nature of business--Those in control (white or black) are using their workers to make profit for the company--In any business the CEO takes home a helluva lot more than his employees. This isn't a new concept. It's why unions exist. If you were to put blacks in control instead of whites at the top they would take advantage of their workers in the same way.

People like to imagine this magical world where if things were different all their problems would cease to exist. Sorry, you would have the same problems. Start up your own shit and don't sell out.

later

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Post by Thun »

LOL@ the fact that there is still chattel slavery in the Arab world in 2008.

I had a friend in graduate school who was a member of the Jordanian Royal family. He related to me a story about a summit between the heads of state of Jordan and Saudi Arabia in the early 1980s.

The Saudi delegation came to Amman with a gift for the royal family. 15 black boys who were purchased from slave traders in the Sudan, available for heavy labor. When the Jordanians refused this wonderful gift, the Saudis informed them that the boys would be executed upon return to Riyadh. Horrified, prominent families in Jordan agreed to adopt the boys and integrate them into Jordanian society.

This isn't exactly something that happens very often in the United States these days. I mean, the closest approximation to chattel slavery claimed by black americans these days is being signed to a major record label, LOLZERS. Also, whitey had NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. So I imagine Mindbender and company will attempt to rationalize it.

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Post by vinylpops »

I like how no one has offered a valid argument on why white people deserve or don't deserve to be apart of the hip hop culture.

Just rampant racialism, textbook regurgitations and wikipedia droppings.

Let's talk more about race, because that always goes somewhere. Especially, since those well educated in the subject don't teach, but instead, toss snide remarks like they are the only one's well versed in the subject (or CAN be well versed in it).

Anyways, my argument: White people can, canadians can't. End. Just kidding.

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Post by Thun »

hired gun wrote:you know African kings traded slaves too!!! You are a slave in yo own mind! Kultcha cipha god. :lol:
Are you trying to be funny or insightful? You are failing desperately at both with every post.

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Post by hired gun »

drizzle wrote:so it's ok to own a dude as long as you own his wife and children too?

what about tribes selling members of other tribes to europeans, and before europeans to arabs?

and aside from the colonial period of african history there's no precedent of tribes/nations (not just in africa, everywhere) committing systematic genocide?

Again, i'm not trying to argue anything as better or worse. I'm not trying to write off any period or event as insignificant or inconsequential. Just pointing out that all of it, the whole idea and institution of slavery going back to the Hammurabi code regardless of historical age race or religion is unspeakably terrible.

Trying to pose one as being preferrable to the other in order to make a point in discussion of race, well...
While two wrongs dont make a right, mitigating the effects of one over the other serves to remove fault from one group. If I capture you as a P.O.W. but feed you well, and let you live with no torture...that is not the same as being a P.O.W. where I dismember you and give you no hope of survival. Same thing only in name. The fact remains that Africans not enslaved in Chattel did not systemically lose all traces of language, culture and religion.

Genocide is an altogether different kettle of fish. The history of chattlel slavery is what makes it different. The reasons behind it, and how and why it was enacted. Its not as simple as saying, slavery is slavery.
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Post by drizzle »

Mindbender Futurama wrote: I never said Arab slavery was any better or worse. I personally feel the one where the most cultural damage and most death and destruction caused is the worst one.
even a literary genius like yourself has to realize this is self contradictory right?
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Post by hired gun »

Thun wrote:
hired gun wrote:you know African kings traded slaves too!!! You are a slave in yo own mind! Kultcha cipha god. :lol:
Are you trying to be funny or insightful? You are failing desperately at both with every post.
I'm following your lead today, Thun. I know we need to get over it (slavery that is). :lol: :megaman:
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Post by hired gun »

vinylpops wrote:I like how no one has offered a valid argument on why white people deserve or don't deserve to be apart of the hip hop culture.

Just rampant racialism, textbook regurgitations and wikipedia droppings.

Let's talk more about race, because that always goes somewhere. Especially, since those well educated in the subject don't teach, but instead, toss snide remarks like they are the only one's well versed in the subject (or CAN be well versed in it).

Anyways, my argument: White people can, canadians can't. End. Just kidding.
I've only tossed snide remarks when tossed at. The fact remains is that a group of people were oppressed. and the argument here is, they oppressed themselves and are the only one's culpable. I've heard that argument since I first took history. Basically its black people's fault. We didn't have any help in putting ourselves in the position we are historically in. That's basically what we are arguing here. People have taken historical generizations without putting them into the proper context. Sadly, the two who are combatting this idea mostly, dont have the ability to articulate it any real way. I'm on a losing team,(I'm not one of the McKenzie boys here....) fighting a battle that no one's ever been able to win. If white people could see there privilege we wouldn't have issues with race in the first place.
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Post by Money Gripp »

My identity as a white male makes it hard for me to understand, but I'm going to go out on a limb here:

I think African blacks would probably say that genocide, war, and rampant poverty are a tad bit worse for black people than some redneck putting a Confederate flag on his pick-up truck.

But maybe I'm wrong.

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Post by drizzle »

hired gun wrote:
drizzle wrote:so it's ok to own a dude as long as you own his wife and children too?

what about tribes selling members of other tribes to europeans, and before europeans to arabs?

and aside from the colonial period of african history there's no precedent of tribes/nations (not just in africa, everywhere) committing systematic genocide?

Again, i'm not trying to argue anything as better or worse. I'm not trying to write off any period or event as insignificant or inconsequential. Just pointing out that all of it, the whole idea and institution of slavery going back to the Hammurabi code regardless of historical age race or religion is unspeakably terrible.

Trying to pose one as being preferrable to the other in order to make a point in discussion of race, well...
While two wrongs dont make a right, mitigating the effects of one over the other serves to remove fault from one group. If I capture you as a P.O.W. but feed you well, and let you live with no torture...that is not the same as being a P.O.W. where I dismember you and give you no hope of survival. Same thing only in name. The fact remains that Africans not enslaved in Chattel did not systemically lose all traces of language, culture and religion.

Genocide is an altogether different kettle of fish. The history of chattlel slavery is what makes it different. The reasons behind it, and how and why it was enacted. Its not as simple as saying, slavery is slavery.
Feed me or torture me, i'm still going to do my hardest to slit your throat and leave. Just like history is written by the winners, mitigating circumstances only exist in the eye captor, not the captive (at least until the Stockholm syndrome sets in you sexy thing :gyeah: )

Are you implying that the pre-european slavers in africa somehow had better or more humane reasons than the europeans did? Are you implying they somehow had a better reason than economic benefit with an underlying contempt and disdain for their subjects?
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Post by hired gun »

Money Gripp wrote:My identity as a white male makes it hard for me to understand, but I'm going to go out on a limb here:

I think African blacks would probably say that genocide, war, and rampant poverty are a tad bit worse for black people than some redneck putting a Confederate flag on his pick-up truck.

But maybe I'm wrong.
No you're right. and you just describe African American history till about the sixties. Although we cleaned up a bit more nicely around the turn of the century. had that nasty lynching habit though. You do realize that most of Africa is stable, though right? That the whole continent is not war torn? You do also understand that most of that genocide has more to do with religion and not the inferiority of a "race" of people, right? Just checking.
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Post by ALASKA »

a few things.

one the european system of slavery which became the american system of slavery was extremely brutal and destructive and comparing it with other forms of slavery is foolish.

two mindbenders theory that america has the worst race relations in the world is beyond retarded. granted there are many problems we face regarding race in this country but we are moving forward and we are in a much better place then we were even ten years ago.

three nobody on this board generates more 5+ page threads than conspiracy.

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Post by vinylpops »

hired gun wrote:
vinylpops wrote:I like how no one has offered a valid argument on why white people deserve or don't deserve to be apart of the hip hop culture.

Just rampant racialism, textbook regurgitations and wikipedia droppings.

Let's talk more about race, because that always goes somewhere. Especially, since those well educated in the subject don't teach, but instead, toss snide remarks like they are the only one's well versed in the subject (or CAN be well versed in it).

Anyways, my argument: White people can, canadians can't. End. Just kidding.
I've only tossed snide remarks when tossed at. The fact remains is that a group of people were oppressed. and the argument here is, they oppressed themselves and are the only one's culpable. I've heard that argument since I first took history. Basically its black people's fault. We didn't have any help in putting ourselves in the position we are historically in. That's basically what we are arguing here. People have taken historical generizations without putting them into the proper context. Sadly, the two who are most representing this idea, dont have the ability to articulate it any real way. I'm on a losing team, fighting a battle that no one's ever been able to win. If white people could see there privilege we wouldn't have issues with race in the first place.
Just to let you know-- I wasn't talking about just you. The problem with this discussion is always one thing: One person refuses to listen to the other's point of view and side of things. In reality, it's almost impossible for a white person to 100% understand the black point of view, or the everyday struggle with being black, but what's funny is people usually never even meet halfway and listen so there is a possibility for 25%, 35%, or 50% understanding. Everyone always has to regurgitate wiki blurbs and what they read in some obscure book in their history class with Mr. Bigglesworth. Never any listening, or teaching for that matter.

What I bolded up there-- I agree with you. I learned that lesson from someone on this board once before actually.

Reading Native Son actually helped too. Probably a juvenile comment to some, but oh well.

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Post by hired gun »

drizzle wrote:
hired gun wrote:
drizzle wrote:so it's ok to own a dude as long as you own his wife and children too?

what about tribes selling members of other tribes to europeans, and before europeans to arabs?

and aside from the colonial period of african history there's no precedent of tribes/nations (not just in africa, everywhere) committing systematic genocide?

Again, i'm not trying to argue anything as better or worse. I'm not trying to write off any period or event as insignificant or inconsequential. Just pointing out that all of it, the whole idea and institution of slavery going back to the Hammurabi code regardless of historical age race or religion is unspeakably terrible.

Trying to pose one as being preferrable to the other in order to make a point in discussion of race, well...
While two wrongs dont make a right, mitigating the effects of one over the other serves to remove fault from one group. If I capture you as a P.O.W. but feed you well, and let you live with no torture...that is not the same as being a P.O.W. where I dismember you and give you no hope of survival. Same thing only in name. The fact remains that Africans not enslaved in Chattel did not systemically lose all traces of language, culture and religion.

Genocide is an altogether different kettle of fish. The history of chattlel slavery is what makes it different. The reasons behind it, and how and why it was enacted. Its not as simple as saying, slavery is slavery.
Feed me or torture me, i'm still going to do my hardest to slit your throat and leave. Just like history is written by the winners, mitigating circumstances only exist in the eye captor, not the captive (at least until the Stockholm syndrome sets in you sexy thing :gyeah: )

Are you implying that the pre-european slavers in africa somehow had better or more humane reasons than the europeans did? Are you implying they somehow had a better reason than economic benefit with an underlying contempt and disdain for their subjects?
I'm saying pre-euorpean slavers did not capture, kill,rape and torture other africans. period. But if they did, it wasn't because they though they were sub human. European Slavers did. There are mountains upon mountains of evidence to that effect. Although humanist point that this was only an economical means to an ends...thus Europeans didn't really think Darkie was sub human..just the most efficient way to get the bang for the buck. wiping away one's identity (mind you something every non African American takes for granted) is collateral damage and thus not important. By evidence of the staunch defense of slavery.
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Post by drizzle »

hired gun wrote:Basically its black people's fault. We didn't have any help in putting ourselves in the position we are historically in. .
This is ludicrous and if i at any point came across as trying to defend this, then i didn't express myself clearly. The devastating effects of colonization on the African continent are not arguable. All I'm trying to say here is that trying to gloss over centuries of tribal and racial strife and injustice that existed before the first European ever stepped foot on the sahara in order to strengthen an argument is just beyond wrong.
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Post by hired gun »

drizzle wrote:
hired gun wrote:Basically its black people's fault. We didn't have any help in putting ourselves in the position we are historically in. .
This is ludicrous and if i at any point came across as trying to defend this, then i didn't express myself clearly. The devastating effects of colonization on the African continent are not arguable. All I'm trying to say here is that trying to gloss over centuries of tribal and racial strife and injustice that existed before the first European ever stepped foot on the sahara in order to strengthen an argument is just beyond wrong.
That's where any humanist argument ultimately leads to. The thing is that whatever tribal strife (there wasn't really any racial strife) didn't completely wipe away a groups, culture, history etc. Now, don't get me wrong..so you understand..white man ain't the devil. there are enough black bastards past and present to sit there...but that's still not the point. Chattel, was european design...it was insidious. Its funny how no one disputes the Nazi Holocaust, and Chattel Slavery did effectively the same thing, just over a longer period of time. really very little difference.
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Post by hired gun »

vinylpops wrote:
hired gun wrote:
vinylpops wrote:I like how no one has offered a valid argument on why white people deserve or don't deserve to be apart of the hip hop culture.

Just rampant racialism, textbook regurgitations and wikipedia droppings.

Let's talk more about race, because that always goes somewhere. Especially, since those well educated in the subject don't teach, but instead, toss snide remarks like they are the only one's well versed in the subject (or CAN be well versed in it).

Anyways, my argument: White people can, canadians can't. End. Just kidding.
I've only tossed snide remarks when tossed at. The fact remains is that a group of people were oppressed. and the argument here is, they oppressed themselves and are the only one's culpable. I've heard that argument since I first took history. Basically its black people's fault. We didn't have any help in putting ourselves in the position we are historically in. That's basically what we are arguing here. People have taken historical generizations without putting them into the proper context. Sadly, the two who are most representing this idea, dont have the ability to articulate it any real way. I'm on a losing team, fighting a battle that no one's ever been able to win. If white people could see there privilege we wouldn't have issues with race in the first place.
Just to let you know-- I wasn't talking about just you. The problem with this discussion is always one thing: One person refuses to listen to the other's point of view and side of things. In reality, it's almost impossible for a white person to 100% understand the black point of view, or the everyday struggle with being black, but what's funny is people usually never even meet halfway and listen so there is a possibility for 25%, 35%, or 50% understanding. Everyone always has to regurgitate wiki blurbs and what they read in some obscure book in their history class with Mr. Bigglesworth. Never any listening, or teaching for that matter.

What I bolded up there-- I agree with you. I learned that lesson from someone on this board once before actually.

Reading Native Son actually helped too. Probably a juvenile comment to some, but oh well.
yea, I shouldn't be playing captain cultural crusader up in this bitch..especially with the McKenzie's as side kicks. I'm losing album sales with each post! :lol: :megaman:
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Post by Tired & Broke »

hired gun wrote:
Thun wrote:
hired gun wrote:you know African kings traded slaves too!!! You are a slave in yo own mind! Kultcha cipha god. :lol:
Are you trying to be funny or insightful? You are failing desperately at both with every post.
I'm following your lead today, Thun. I know we need to get over it (slavery that is). :lol: :megaman:
The FUCK WE Do.

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Post by Money Gripp »

hired gun wrote:
Money Gripp wrote:My identity as a white male makes it hard for me to understand, but I'm going to go out on a limb here:

I think African blacks would probably say that genocide, war, and rampant poverty are a tad bit worse for black people than some redneck putting a Confederate flag on his pick-up truck.

But maybe I'm wrong.
No you're right. and you just describe African American history till about the sixties. Although we cleaned up a bit more nicely around the turn of the century. had that nasty lynching habit though. You do realize that most of Africa is stable, though right? That the whole continent is not war torn? You do also understand that most of that genocide has more to do with religion and not the inferiority of a "race" of people, right? Just checking.
1. Sure, there are functioning democratic institutions and prosperous economies in many regions, but if you wanna look at Human Development Index African countries consistently rank very low. Does that mean that there aren't progressive and successful societies? No, but I don't think some good examples are enough to ignore the myriad problems that face Africans. Seems a bit shortsighted - kinda like people declaring racism is over because a man of half-black ancestry is nominated as the candidate of a major political party.

2. Religion always gives racism a run for its money when it comes to corrosive ideologies that give people a justification to kill each other. What's your point? Intolerance has many forms not all of which are mutually exclusive.

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Post by drizzle »

That's where any humanist argument ultimately leads to. The thing is that whatever tribal strife (there wasn't really any racial strife) didn't completely wipe away a groups, culture, history etc. Now, don't get me wrong..so you understand..white man ain't the devil. there are enough black bastards past and present to sit there...but that's still not the point. Chattel, was european design...it was insidious. Its funny how no one disputes the Nazi Holocaust, and Chattel Slavery did effectively the same thing, just over a longer period of time. really very little difference.
Again, not disputing the existence of Chattel Slavery or it's effects. Not presenting a humanist argument which reduces it to simply economic causes, that's idiotic imo. Clearly there was much more to it, but these very motivations are not exclusive to Europeans or anybody else for that matter - inventing reasons to feel better than the next man and then exercising these reasons for gain is part of human condition, always has been and always will be.

and there was actually racial strife, as north african arabs considered themselves different and superior to other races of the continent

i believe there's precedent with egypt as well, but that's a whole another can of worms

can we just agree on the following, i don't feel like doing this anymore:

- slavery in all forms is some terrible shit
- white people suck but everybody else kinda sucks too, sometimes just as much
- mindbender, while having nothing but good intentions and some right and insightful ideas (he had some good shit on page 1 and 2 i think), is kinda bad at presenting these intentions and ideas in this particular setting, gets easily flustered when challenged, and for this he will eternally be picked on
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Post by drizzle »

just to close out, going back to the og topic, most insightful thing in the thread so far:
vinylpops wrote:....on why white people deserve or don't deserve to be apart of the hip hop culture....
Anyways, my argument: White people can, canadians can't. End.
.

done
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Post by vinylpops »

hired gun wrote: I'm losing album sales with each post! :lol: :megaman:
:lol:

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Post by rainmaker »

hey conspiracy, even ur faggot space-faced braindead brother thinks ur a fucking faggot...

ur thoughts plz...

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Post by Mindbender Futurama »

for the record: I don't care that Conspiracy called me a name (bitch nigga or whatever. :roll: ) I'm used to it. He can say "he hasn't judged something since 1997" or whatever he said.. but there's a lot of evidence to the contrary, and I'm so familiar with his wild mind that I'm not fazed by any name calling he does. Even with his mind clearing up, his philosophies are more based on a scattered collection of various spiritual documents than a singular theory of faith. I don't want to go Morpheus/Neo on him, but if he ever wants to debate... I'm game, no :omggay: :rofl:
drizzle wrote:
Mindbender Futurama wrote: I never said Arab slavery was any better or worse. I personally feel the one where the most cultural damage and most death and destruction caused is the worst one.
even a literary genius like yourself has to realize this is self contradictory right?
I was waiting for you to quote that one. I left it there, and you fell right in the trap.

I can think whatever I want about slavery. What I think is not beyond what really happened. But I can still think it.

I think that European man's exploitation of the African is the worst type of slavery ever done in human history. But the facts may prove different. I'm open-minded enough to keep my head constantly learning, but I still think whatever the fuck I want.

and no culture has raped, damaged, stolen, used, manipulated, extorted, erased, pimped, subjugated and controlled more than the white European man has controlled the fate of the Black African man in the last 2000 years.

if I learn the Arab version of slavery was worse to more people, I will change my mind and opinion.

until then... white man, watch out :rofl:

....

:icedit:

holy crap, drizzle gave me some props! i'm going to stop saying anything! i'm happy! :grin:
Last edited by Mindbender Futurama on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Money Gripp »

Mindbender, post your TOP 5 SLAVERY list.

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Post by hired gun »

drizzle wrote:just to close out, going back to the og topic, most insightful thing in the thread so far:
vinylpops wrote:....on why white people deserve or don't deserve to be apart of the hip hop culture....
Anyways, my argument: White people can, canadians can't. End.
.

done
agreed. The dream lives!
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Post by Remo the Great »

admiral wrote:
and reparations and an exodus back to Africa is a necessary part of that healing process...
what the fuck makes you think Africa would want an influx of comparatively rich Americans invading their continent?
exactly. and plus, shit is just as bad or worse in africa. White people run shit in many many places over there. Even if its not obvious, the fiscal chains are in place.

And many of the nations where white people arent overt or covertly runnign shit are usually poor as fuck and full of civil war.

Many africans look DOWN on black people from the US. We're spoiled, ignorant, whiny, rich exports who in general dont know shit about our own history. Why would they want us back?
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Post by Thun »

The Forgotten Holocaust:
The Eastern Slave Trade

The Arab Slave Trade is the longest yet least discussed of the two major trades. It begins in the 7th century AD as Arabs and other Asians poured into Northern and Eastern Africa under the banner of Islam, either converting or subjugating the African societies they came upon. In the beginning there was some level of mutual respect between the Blacks and the more Caucasian-Semitic Arabs. Mihdja, a Black man, is said to be the first Muslim killed in battle while another, Bilal, is regarded as a "third of the faith." Dhu'l-Nun al-Misri, born in Upper Egypt near Sudan, is regarded as the founder of Sufism. Today Sufism's greatest stronghold is in Southern Egypt and Sudan. Islamic prosperity was based upon Black as well as Arabic genius.

The children of a stinking Nubian black---God put no light in their complexion!
Arab Poet, late 600AD,

But as Islamic prosperity grew, so did an air of hostility towards many Blacks, Muslims or otherwise. Some Arabs complained about having to work next to Blacks in high positions. After the Prophet's death, even the descendants of Bilal received negative treatment. Arabic writings became laced with anti-Black sentiment. This reaction of Blacks at the time to this can be seen in the writings of a contemporary 9th Century Black scholar in residence at Baghdad by the name of Abu 'Uthman' Amr Ibn Bahr Al-Jahiz. Al-Jahiz, to confront a growing tide of anti-black sentiment in the Muslim world, published a highly controversial work at the time titled, Kitab Fakhr As-Sudan 'Ala Al-Bidan, "The Book of Glory of the Blacks over the Whites." Al-Jahiz in his work contended that even the Prophet Mohammad's father may have been of African lineage.

These new attitudes towards Blacks by Arabs marked the beginning of African enslavement. Though not based solely on race, the Arab Slave Trade did focus heavily upon Africans whom Arabs now saw as inferior to themselves. At first these Arabs raided African villages themselves seeking humans for sale. This not being always successful, they soon enlisted the aid of fellow African Muslims or recently converted Blacks. Wrapping themselves within Islam, these converts rationalized the slavery of their non Muslim brethren as the selling of "unbelievers." At other times the Arabs would demand tribute in the form of human bodies from Africans weary of the fight against Arabic-Islamic incursions.

The Arabs took advantage of regional wars in Africa to buy captives from the victor. They also used the old divide-and-conquer technique. They worked one group against the other and took or killed the best and strongest.
S.E. Anderson, The Black Holocaust for Beginners

Slave Raids and Markets


The Arab slavers raided at nightfall, during the dinner time. Africans who resisted or tried to run were shot and killed. Most adult men were killed as the Arabs favored women and children for sale. The captives then endured a long and torturous march through the African countryside as the slavers searched and gathered more captives. Young men, women, and children were bound by hand and by neck throughout this journey, enduring beatings and rapes along the way. Those who fell sick or dead were left behind. Others remained bound to living captives.



After surviving the torturous ride aboard the Arab slave ships, Africans were taken to the slave markets. Here Muslim men would inspect their intended purchases. Women and young girls were degradingly probed by these men in public or private stalls to test their sexual worth. Those that did not survive their time in these markets were left out to rot. It is said that that hyenas, very numerous in the region, "gorged themselves on human flesh..." Pictured here is a slave market in East Africa.

Concubines and Eunuchs


Pictured here is an African trader (possibly an Egyptian)with two Sudanese slave girls for sale. The African is a Muslim while the girls are not. The Eastern Slave Trade dealt primarily with African women: a ratio of two women for each man. These women and young girls were used by Arabs and other Asians as concubines. Filling the harems of wealthy Arabs, they often bore them a host of children. This sexual abuse of African women would continue for nearly 1200 years.



The Eastern Slave Trade also dealt in the sale of castrated male slaves: Aghas or eunuchs. Used as guards and tutors, these slaves were central to familial peace, protection and order in many wealthy Muslim households. Eunuchs were created by completely amputating the scrotum and penis of 8-to-12-year-old African boys. Hundreds of thousands of young boys may have been subjected to this genital mutilation. Many bled to death during the gory procedure. The survival rate of this process ranged from 1 in 10 to 1 in 30.

Holocaust: The Numbers

Due to the enormous length of the Arab Slave Trade, from 700 to 1911AD, it is impossible to be certain of the numbers of Africans sold in this system. Estimates place the numbers somewhere around 14 million: at least 9.6 million African women and 4.4 African men.

It has been estimated that in all, at least 14 to 20 MILLION African men, women and children died throughout this trade. (Photos and Information courtesy of The Black Holocaust for Beginners by SE Anderson, A Pictorial History of the Slave Trade, Slave Trade of Eastern Africa by Beachy, Slavery in the Arab World by Gordon Murray and Africa in History by Basil Davidson)

Mindbender Futurama
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Post by Mindbender Futurama »

I like learning from Thun more than arguing with him
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Create the universe you dream of.
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Mindbender Futurama
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Posts: 39450
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Post by Mindbender Futurama »

Money Gripp wrote:Mindbender, post your TOP 5 SLAVERY list.
:rofl:

5) Ike and Tina
4) Puff Daddy and Fonzworth Bentley
3) 50 Cent and Young Buck
2) Ras Kass and Capitol Records
1) Puff Daddy and The Lox

:ironmike:
You're in Heaven right now, God.
Create the universe you dream of.
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