Cliff Lee/Roy Halladay Blockbuster Trade

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:31 am

Thanks for the memories Cliff Lee & family. Good luck to you in Dids Town.

Tommy Bunz · Post by **Tommy Bunz** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:45 am

i saw that when someone posted it in the Phightins comments section. Lee's wife looks like she hasn't grown pubic hair yet.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:46 am

And Lee looks like a young Dexter Morgan.

Stoned Starks · Post by **Stoned Starks** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:51 am

Philaflava wrote:Who are the hitters on the Mariners next year? Figgins and Ichiro? They can have the best pitching next year but with no run support whats it matter?

A run scored isn't more valuable than a run prevented and the M's are in line to have probably the best run prevention in the bigs. And if they can sign someone like Nick Johnson for DH to fill out the order they will be nasty.

Also, to whomever said that Amaro is the best GM in the game has obviously not been following what Jack Z in Seattle has been doing. This is the second time in consecutive offseasons he essentially traded for a 5+ win return without giving up anything significant/irreplaceable.

Angels fans are going nuts.

Website · Post by **Random Sample** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:54 am

They look like they are mormon.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:58 am

Stoned Starks wrote:
Philaflava wrote:Who are the hitters on the Mariners next year? Figgins and Ichiro? They can have the best pitching next year but with no run support whats it matter?
A run scored isn't more valuable than a run prevented and the M's are in line to have probably the best run prevention in the bigs. And if they can sign someone like Nick Johnson for DH to fill out the order they will be nasty.

Also, to whomever said that Amaro is the best GM in the game has obviously not been following what Jack Z in Seattle has been doing. This is the second time in consecutive offseasons he essentially traded for a 5+ win return without giving up anything significant/irreplaceable.

Angels fans are going nuts.

Mariners might lead the AL in hits but they will be near the bottom of the list in runs scored. Who is gonna supply the power? Lopez? Hall? Griffey? They need to sign somebody like Vlad to play DH.

And wins are great but until you can beat the winner out of the AL East the Mariners will always look like they have potential but will be watching the World Series from home like the rest of us. Until you can get to the big game then it means nothing. Having the pieces for a puzzle is great, it's putting the pieces together that is the difference.

Stoned Starks · Post by **Stoned Starks** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:11 pm

Philaflava wrote:
Stoned Starks wrote:
Philaflava wrote:Who are the hitters on the Mariners next year? Figgins and Ichiro? They can have the best pitching next year but with no run support whats it matter?
A run scored isn't more valuable than a run prevented and the M's are in line to have probably the best run prevention in the bigs. And if they can sign someone like Nick Johnson for DH to fill out the order they will be nasty.

Also, to whomever said that Amaro is the best GM in the game has obviously not been following what Jack Z in Seattle has been doing. This is the second time in consecutive offseasons he essentially traded for a 5+ win return without giving up anything significant/irreplaceable.

Angels fans are going nuts.
Mariners might lead the AL in hits but they will be near the bottom of the list in runs scored. Who is gonna supply the power? Lopez? Hall? Griffey? They need to sign somebody like Vlad to play DH.

And wins are great but until you can beat the winner out of the AL East the Mariners will always look like they have potential but will be watching the World Series from home like the rest of us. Until you can get to the big game then it means nothing. Having the pieces for a puzzle is great, it's putting the pieces together that is the difference.

Hopefully none of Lopez, Hall or Griffey are starting by the time the season comes along. At least full time anyways. And why does a team necessarilly need "power"? Whitey Herzog says hello.

Also, while I agree with you that it doesn't mean shit unless you can get to the big game its pretty obvious that what Z has done with an admittedly fucked up situation is noteworthy. 2011 was supposed to be the year the M's truly contended for the AL West/WS with a number of Albatross contracts finally coming off the books, however, Z has fast-tracked contention with this move and I think that its pretty hard to argue he isn't beginning to put the pieces together for a serious run.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:25 pm

There were talks of moving Lopez to 1st. We all know Figgins can play 2B but he didn't sign to do that. If you resign Beltre and Figgins goes to 2nd your infield is pretty complete with Lopez at first now. Hall won't start he will always be a utility kinda guy. He is an offensive liability as starter.

A team doesn't need power they need runs. Hello San Fran Giants. You got 2 amazing starters and then it becomes Ian Snell time. You need to put up runs to compete and with an aging Griffey and no more Beltre or Branyan you have very little power. The Mariners didn't even have 1 player with over 100 rbis last year. Not one!

The move would be to focus on Bay. He is from Vancouver and expressed playing for Seattle. No way Griffey is the answer. Sign Vlad to a 2 year deal while you can. Secure some of that middle of the order pop that you guys desperately need.

Tommy Bunz · Post by **Tommy Bunz** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:19 pm

Buster Olney just twittered that the Jays are going to immediately flip Michael Taylor to Oakland for Brett Wallace

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:23 pm

Tommy Bunz wrote:Buster Olney just twittered that the Jays are going to immediately flip Michael Taylor to Oakland for Brett Wallace

Both should be on the opening day roster.

This is a pretty good breakdown of the entire thing.

A good deal for Phillies
The Halladay/Lee deal is "very unlikely" to be made official today, according to a person familiar with the talks. An official announcement could very well come tomorrow. The process could still accelerate and lead to an announcement later today.

There has been some unrest in my inbox this morning about reports of this trade. The widely reported deal is a good one for the Phillies, but your concerns are understandable. Reports varied yesterday evening, but the framework has now come into focus as pretty much this:

Phillies get: Roy Halladay from Toronto, 20-year-old righthander Phillippe Aumont form Seattle, 21-year-old righty J.C. Ramirez from Seattle, and 21-year-old outfielder Tyson Gillies from Seattle.

Toronto gets: Righty Kyle Drabek, outfielder Michael Taylor, catcher Travis dגArnaud.

Seattle gets: Cliff Lee

This could still change up until the moment it is announced.

Letגs run through some of the reservations and questions:

Why did it have to be Cliff Lee?

The Phillies at first tried to move Joe Blantonגs approximately $7 million salary, but that apparently did not go anywhere. It would have been very difficult to find a team to take on that money and trade decent prospects for Blanton.

That left the Phils with the option of trading Lee. The lefty will make $9 million in 2010, and the team expected he would become a free agent after the season. Leeגs agent told us yesterday that wasnגt necessarily true. But even if he did sign an extension, it would have been for significantly more money than the Phils are reportedly giving Halladay.

According to ESPN, Halladay will make $15.75 million next season, and $60 million for the next three years. Thatגs an unbelieveable bargain, and the best part about it is the length; youגre not locking this guy up until heגs over-the-hill (heגs 32 now). Leeגs buddy CC Sabathia got seven years, $161 million last winter, by comparison. More money, more years. And Lee might look for something like that in 11 months.

The idea that Lee and Halladay could be part of the same rotation next year was never realistic. The Phils maintained they did not have the room in their payroll. That room might have been created by trading Blanton, but they couldnגt.

And while Lee was spectacular in the World Series, Roy Halladay is a better pitcher. Look it up.

But we thought Drabek was untouchableג¦
Baseball America projects Drabek as a potential no. 2 or no. 3 starter. He has already undergone Tommy John surgery, and the team shut him down this summer for precautionary reasons. Keep in mind that most highly-touted pitchers do not become stars. It is difficult to imagine that he will be comparable in any way to Halladay over the next four years.

Also, this is much easier for the Phils to absorb, because they are receiving a highly-touted pitcher. Aumont is a former no. 1 draft pick, and he struck out Kevin Youkilis and Curtis Granderson while pitching for Team Canada in last Marchגs World Baseball Classic.

Ramirez is raw. He was 8-10 with a 5.12 ERA last season, but his perceived potential led Baseball America to rank him as the no.5 prospect in the Marinersג system.

Will either Aumont or Ramirez become major league stars? Not likely. It is never likely that pitching prospects will become solid major leaguers. But they do help ease the hit to the farm system caused by this trade.

Someone told us that that Michael Taylor was going to be an All-Starג¦
Michael Taylor seems like a very smart, very grounded person, and we wish him the best. And he may well enjoy a productive career. But baseball people like Domonic Brown much more. The Phils kept Brown out of this deal, a negotiating victory.

Gillies, by the way, played in the Futures Game last year, a showcase for top minor league talent.

Itגs not just that they gave up Lee, Drabek, Taylor, dגArnaud. They gave up Marson, Carrasco, et. alג¦.

Donגt let Ruben Amaro fool you when he says he gave up a lot for Lee last summer. I will be surprised if any one of Lou Marson, Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald and Jason Knapp ever makes an All-Star team. The Indians needed to shed payroll last summer, and took a package of lesser prospects for their ace.

Look, two things that fans love are postseason performers and top prospects. Thatגs what people get excited about, and connect to emotionally. Very reasonable. But I believe that this move makes it more likely that the Phils will enjoy several more World Series appearances. It makes them a bit better next year, and much, much better in 2011, 2012 and 2013.

Tommy Bunz · Post by **Tommy Bunz** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:02 pm

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:04 pm

They drafted him #1 for a reason. Let's hope he is a solid #5 for us in the future.

Quotashun · Post by **Quotashun** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:07 pm

I really like the sound of this Brett Wallace guy coming T.O.'s way for Taylor. Looking at his #s, why didn't the A's give him a look in the bigs last year?

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:14 pm

He was on the Cards most of last year.

Stoned Starks · Post by **Stoned Starks** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:24 pm

Aumont is projecting to the 'pen right now, due to injury concerns and a lack of secondary pitches. With that said, he has a fairly decent shot at becoming a legitimate bullpen ace.

jamrage · Post by **jamrage** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:17 pm

Good trade for the Phils.

Halladay is definitely the better of the two pitchers. I always like a proven commodity over prospects. Might as well move Drabek while he's theoretically at his top value. Good to see a National League team really mix it up in the offseason.

eternalreflection · Post by **eternalreflection** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:46 pm

the Halladay deal was good, the Lee one doesn't make much sense and they definitely got the worst of it

if there was a loser in the deal it def was the phillies

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:53 pm

I posted a bunch of articles and a video from all respectable sources. Why does it still not make sense about Lee?

<object width="384" height="216" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" id="ESPN_VIDEO" data="http://espn.go.com/videohub/player/embed.swf" allowScriptAccess="always" allowNetworking="all"><param name="movie" value="http://espn.go.com/videohub/player/embed.swf" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"/><param name="wmode" value="opaque"/><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"/><param name="allowNetworking" value="all"/><param name="flashVars" value="id=4742624"/></object>

Why did it have to be Cliff Lee?

The Phillies at first tried to move Joe Blantonגs approximately $7 million salary, but that apparently did not go anywhere. It would have been very difficult to find a team to take on that money and trade decent prospects for Blanton.

That left the Phils with the option of trading Lee. The lefty will make $9 million in 2010, and the team expected he would become a free agent after the season. Leeגs agent told us yesterday that wasnגt necessarily true. But even if he did sign an extension, it would have been for significantly more money than the Phils are reportedly giving Halladay.

According to ESPN, Halladay will make $15.75 million next season, and $60 million for the next three years. Thatגs an unbelieveable bargain, and the best part about it is the length; youגre not locking this guy up until heגs over-the-hill (heגs 32 now). Leeגs buddy CC Sabathia got seven years, $161 million last winter, by comparison. More money, more years. And Lee might look for something like that in 11 months.

The idea that Lee and Halladay could be part of the same rotation next year was never realistic. The Phils maintained they did not have the room in their payroll. That room might have been created by trading Blanton, but they couldnגt.

And while Lee was spectacular in the World Series, Roy Halladay is a better pitcher. Look it up.

Tommy Bunz · Post by **Tommy Bunz** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:39 am

Might have a press conference sometime today to make this official.

I wonder what number Halladay is going to take, considering 32 is Lefty's and retired.

Tommy Bunz · Post by **Tommy Bunz** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:26 pm

And the best baseball writer in the business finally chimes in:

Always excellent Halladay gives Phils win in historic deal

By Joe Posnanski

Well, you probably know by now that the three-way Roy Halladay-Cliff Lee-prospects-galore deal is utterly unique. It has never happened before that two Cy Young Award winners were in the same trade. When you throw in the odd fact that the SON of a Cy Young Award winner -- Kyle Drabek, son of 1990 Cy Young winner Doug Drabek -- was also part of the deal (according to sources), well, it's really quite a remarkable thing. This is finally the chance for headline writers to go with that that Cy-Onara headline they've been waiting forever to use.*

*Or in the case of the Toronto Blue Jays: "Cy-Onide."

Before getting into the ramifications of the deal, it might be worth pointing out that now four of the last seven Cy Young winners have been traded.

2008 NL: Cliff Lee
Traded from Cleveland to Philadelphia, and again from Philadelphia to Seattle.

2007 AL: C.C. Sabathia
Traded from Cleveland to Milwaukee. Signed with New York Yankees for record deal.

2007 NL: Jake Peavy
Traded from San Diego to the Chicago White Sox.

2006 AL: Johan Santana
Traded by Minnesota and signed with New York Mets for huge deal.

The only Cy Young winners since 2006 who are still with their teams are 2009 winners Zack Greinke* and Tim Lincecum and the 2006 NL winner, Arizona's Brandon Webb, who made just one start in 2009 because of injury. I don't know what this means except that great pitching is extremely expensive... money played the dominant role in the movement of all four of the above Cy Young pitchers. Lee was traded from Cleveland because of money, and then from Philadelphia apparently because he was not willing to give the Phillies a discount on a long-term deal. Sabathia was traded from Cleveland because of money, and then he signed the mega-Yankees deal. Peavy was traded from San Diego because of money -- the Padres had tried to deal him earlier. Santana was traded by the Twins because of money.

You can throw 2003 AL Cy Young winner Halladay and the 2002 AL Cy Young winner, Barry Zito, into the conversation.

*Another thing worth mentioning: Zack Greinke signed a four-year $38 million extension with the Kansas City Royals before the 2009 season. That will keep him from being a free agent after the 2010 season -- the Royals have him under control through the 2012 season, when he will make $13.5 million per year. But, seriously, how much money could Greinke have made on the open market after his ridiculously great 2009 season? If you assume that Greinke will have a good season in 2010 -- and I think that's a fair assumption -- he would have hit the open market as a 26-year-old pitcher with incredible stuff who had one of the more remarkable pitching seasons in memory.

It sounds off-key to spend a lot of time celebrating a player who did, after all, sign for $38 million. But Greinke left tens of millions of dollars on the table in order to stay with the team that stuck with him through hard times.

Of course, money infiltrates every part of baseball -- every part of sports. But this is especially true for the Cy Young winners. Great pitching is SO expensive.

But here's the other thing that goes along with it: Great pitching is so difficult for a starter to sustain. If you had wanted to pick the best young pitchers in baseball (young being, say, 28 and younger) after the 2003 season, the list might have looked something like this:

1. Roy Halladay, 26, Cy Young winner, led league in eight categories in 2003.

2. Barry Zito, 25, Cy Young winner in '02.

3. Roy Oswalt, 26, 43-17 with 2.92 ERA through first three seasons.

4. Tim Hudson, 28, former 20-game winner, led league in shutouts in '03.

5. Mark Mulder, 26, 64-34, former 20-game winner, led league in complete games and, for the second time in three years, shutouts.

6. Mark Prior, 23, can't-miss pitcher won 18 games with 2.43 ERA, 245 strikeouts and 50 walks in '03.

7. Kerry Wood, 26, led league in strikeouts in '03.

8. Freddy Garcia, 28, 72-43 record and led league in ERA in 2001.

9. Javier Vazquez, 27, coming off spectacular year with 3.24 ERA and 241 Ks in 230 2/3 innings.

10. Joel Pineiro, 25, 37-20 with 3.38 ERA lifetime.

You can play around with the list if you like, but the point is... that's a real mixed bag up there. Zito has lived a soap opera, Hudson and Mulder have had injuries and inconsistencies (did you realize that Mulder has not won a big league game since June 15, 2006?). Prior and Wood are now part of the Cubs curse. Vazquez and Pineiro, in addition to sounding like 16th Century explorers, have been up and down and over and out.

There are a couple of pitchers on that list, though, who have been good pretty much every year. One is Oswalt, who won 20 games in 2004 and 2005 and led the league in ERA in 2006. The other, of course, is Halladay. What a remarkably consistent force Roy Halladay has been. Look, just look, at his last two years:

ג¢ He made 33 starts in 2008, 32 starts in 2009.

ג¢ His ERA was 2.78 in 2008, 2.79 in 2009.

ג¢ He threw nine complete games each year -- twice leading the league.

ג¢ He led the league both years in strikeout-to-walk ratio.

ג¢ His walk rates, strikeout rates and home run rates were almost identical.

This sort of consistency is really quite remarkable. He finished Top 5 in the Cy Young voting for four straight years.

Halladay is really like the starting pitcher version of Mariano Rivera -- he basically throws the same thing to everybody (93 mph fastballs that cut, or cutters that sink or sinkers that are fast) and he has eerily good control and hits his spot time after time. Hitters cannot hit the ball in the air against him. Halladay has learned how to strike out hitters, especially when he needs a big strikeout (his K-rate has jumped the last two years). He's a force of nature.

And so, sure, Philadelphia got the prize in the trade. Cliff Lee was ridiculously good in 2008 and really good in 2009... he and Felix Hernandez make a spectacular 1-2 punch. The Mariners look like contenders next year. The Blue Jays -- well, things are still sorting out on the prospects they will get, but it looks like they are getting a couple of good ones and can hope for things to turn out well. The Indians, after all, got young prospects Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore and Brandon Phillips when they traded future Cy Young winner Bartolo Colon to Montreal in 2002. The hope is to get some of that prospect magic.

But the Phillies got the most consistent pitching force in the game... and it appears that they have signed him for three more years after this. The thing most people in the game say with pitching is: You never know. And it's true. Pitchers get hurt. They lose their confidence. They lose their stuff. You never know.

But with Halladay, you pretty much do know.

Reason · Post by **Reason** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:23 pm

cliff lee's wife looks like she's sixteen

i guess

Reason · Post by **Reason** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:24 pm

hey i thought drabek was gone in this deal

sorry i'm too lazy/busy to re-read every post/news article here

Bones · Post by **Bones** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:02 pm

UPDATE (1:30 p.m. ET): A 'tweet' from Toronto Sun baseball columnist Bob Elliott reports that one of the prospects involved in the deal has failed the physical. Halladay and Lee reportedly passed.

Tommy Bunz · Post by **Tommy Bunz** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:59 pm

^^^False rumor.

Deal is official. Halladay press conference at 5 o'clock.

Bones · Post by **Bones** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:59 pm

... the entire physical-failing rumor was completely false, and other sources are confirming that the deal is final and there will be a Doc press conference this afternoon.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:12 pm

Tommy Bunz wrote:^^^False rumor.

Deal is official. Halladay press conference at 5 o'clock.

Cross swords (boners)

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:19 pm

press conference on now

http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/video_player2

from one jew to another, thank you ruben amaro.

Quotashun · Post by **Quotashun** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:41 pm

Fuck youuuuuuuuu. This must be karma for 1993.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:22 pm

Quotashun wrote:Fuck youuuuuuuuu. This must be karma for 1993.

it is.

odium-LSC · Post by **odium-LSC** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:52 am

Reason wrote:cliff lee's wife looks like a chubby twelve year old

God, I hope Seattle doesn't suck too much ass next season. I had to give up watching them a while back. It just got too painful.