Best Defensive Player since '85: Payton vs. Garnett

Gregg Popabitch · Post by **Gregg Popabitch** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:08 pm

Gary Payton

vs.

Kevin Garnett

naturalborn103 · Post by **naturalborn103** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:06 pm

ric · Post by **ric** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:29 pm

tough one. rolling with gp

capable_keL · Post by **capable_keL** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:47 pm

widedefensestance.jpeg

naturalborn103 · Post by **naturalborn103** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:02 pm

If Payton wins it is a travesty.

Cash Rulz · Post by **Cash Rulz** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:12 pm

Went with KG because his D affected more shots.

Roy Johnson · Post by **Roy Johnson** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:57 pm

Cash Rulz wrote:Went with KG because his D affected more shots.

Manute Bol affected more shots than Gary Payton. I wouldn't think of it along those lines. This is more of a pound-for-pound type deal.

capable_keL · Post by **capable_keL** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:09 pm

can the gary payton voters explain themselves?

ric · Post by **ric** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:43 pm

@kel
they call him the glove because he shuts your ass down
how many pgs have won nba defensive player awards?
probably the greatest career/prime defensive performance by a pg in the history of the game
in his prime you couldnt even really pick him out of a play, hed have had to make a mistake for you to get access to anything resembling a clean shot (and im not sure about his later career but would not doubt his ability to plaster himself onto you)
also took guys out of games with his d and his mouth. guy probably talked more shit than anybody else in the history of the game, its a rare thing to not see his mouth moving no matter what is going on, and would fuck with guys that way, effectively for the most part, even if he wasnt ding up on a guy (ex karl malone, who he would occasionally guard too). finished his career top 3-5 in techs or flagrants.
his on court position work is outstanding and he could effectively guard spots 1-4 at most any level of talent. centers were a bit problematic for him but he still managed to draw charges and make an impact.

in my opinion, with as little hometown/homo bias as possible, guy is a top 10 defender of all time from what ive seen. hes a top 5 favorite player for me personally.

capable_keL · Post by **capable_keL** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:48 pm

ric wrote:@kel
they call him the glove because he shuts your ass down
how many pgs have won nba defensive player awards?
probably the greatest career/prime defensive performance by a pg in the history of the game
in his prime you couldnt even really pick him out of a play, hed have had to make a mistake for you to get access to anything resembling a clean shot
also took guys out of games with his d and his mouth. guy probably talked more shit than anybody else in the history of the game, its a rare thing to not see his mouth moving no matter what is going on, and would fuck with guys that way, effectively for the most part, even if he wasnt ding up on a guy (ex karl malone, who he would occasionally guard too). finished his career top 3-5 in techs or flagrants.
his position work is outstanding and he could effectively guard spots 1-4 at most any level of talent. centers were a bit problematic for him but he still managed to draw charges.

in my opinion, with as little hometown bias as possible, guy is a top 10 defender of all time from what ive seen.

thanks for repeating well known facts about the glove. but outlined facts notwithstanding he still wasn't on par with KG. and I am a vehement KG hater because i despise epic faggots

ric · Post by **ric** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:54 pm

how about this: kg is not as good a man defender as gp and got fucked with for years in a way that blocked shots stats cant reflect.

capable_keL · Post by **capable_keL** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:00 pm

dont fucking roll your eyes at me

KG was matched up, every night, with the best crop of PF in the history of the NBA. every night KG was going against:
S. Kemp
Karl Malone
Tim Duncan
Raweed wallace
chris webber
Amare
Dirk

this is why i give KG the nod because every night he was matched up against elite, dominant competition. not discounting the glove, but thats my argument

naturalborn103 · Post by **naturalborn103** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:00 pm

Payton could not gaurd 4s. Also, once KG was older then like 20 or 21 he did not get fucked with for years when playing man D at all.

ric · Post by **ric** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:09 pm

night after night gp got the opposing teams best scorer (usually any teams most versatile scoring threat) unless karl was trying to shut down the ball distribution. and he usually did shut you down and dominate (ex: picking jason kidds pocket) usually with little/no help in any sort of way.

edit: he didnt even really funnel, he just played you straight up

led a below elite level team to elite status defense, coming in 2nd in 96 to the greatest team ever assembled.

9 time nba defensive 1st team
9 times

probably the greatest perimeter defender to ever play the game, not counting his versatility. and youre mad/confused because kg was matched up with some great big men.

:roll::roll:

Gregg Popabitch · Post by **Gregg Popabitch** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:09 pm

I haven't voted yet....

but Gary Payton had just about every elite skill/tool that you'd want in a PG defensively: length, lateral quickness, timing, good hands, peskiness/motor, the ability to play lanes, and the ability to drop down in a double team. He guarded Jordan after Game 2 in '96 if i'm not mistaken and did a pretty solid job.

Take that with a grain of salt though because I am a part of the extremely small camp that believes Rodman should've been the MVP of the '96 finals.

ric · Post by **ric** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:19 pm

@popabitch
the 96 finals was a great matchup. jordan had his, and sometimes handily, but gp held him to 28 and under, i think, and a couple nights under 35% fg% and in game 6 both teams came out either poor offensively or committed to defense and the bulls, iirc, ended up putting ron harper on him and double teaming because they knew that he would be the heart and soul of any sort of come back on both ends of the floor.

bulls win 85 75 or something.

and some nights jordan was just getting calls, as well as shooting excellent ft%

jazzmatazz23 · Post by **jazzmatazz23** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:31 pm

If we were just comparing primes then it would be close.
Career wise it has to be KG. He still has a huge effect on D and is one of the best defensive motivators.

peanut butter · Post by **peanut butter** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:37 pm

How come Pippen didn't make this tourney, but Joe Dumars did?

PEACE

Roy Johnson · Post by **Roy Johnson** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:34 pm

peanut butter wrote:How come Pippen didn't make this tourney, but Joe Dumars did?

PEACE

Pippen got a bye.

peanut butter · Post by **peanut butter** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:48 pm

No doubt. For that, I will share the image that best documents the most important moment in Scottie's life...

PEACE

peanut butter · Post by **peanut butter** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:51 pm

Soon after that picture was captured, Olden took to the streets and began acting like Keitel in Bad Lieutenant. Coincidentally, that was also the most important time in his life.

PEACE

Cash Rulz · Post by **Cash Rulz** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:21 am

Roy Johnson wrote:
Cash Rulz wrote:Went with KG because his D affected more shots.
Manute Bol affected more shots than Gary Payton. I wouldn't think of it along those lines. This is more of a pound-for-pound type deal.

Yeah, but I'm in NOOOOO way thinking of the way KG affected shot like Bol. None. Zero. No correlation....whatsoever.

Bol sucked.

I'm thinking that KG blocking proved more valuable than Payton's containing.

Gregg Popabitch · Post by **Gregg Popabitch** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:24 pm

Roy Johnson wrote:
peanut butter wrote:How come Pippen didn't make this tourney, but Joe Dumars did?

PEACE
Pippen got a bye.

Yep.

To be completely honest, GP got a bye too. I wanted to go with KG with a bye but my homie (who helped me make the whole tourney....and no, it's not Rzn) insisted that GP get it. It was honestly down to these two for the last bye.

Reason · Post by **Reason** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:16 pm

it's a bit silly to insist that a guy who is 6'4 is a better defender than a guy who is 6'11 when the 6'4 guy got to hand-check his entire prime and most of his career and the 6'11 guy has guarded 3's, 4's, and 5's with ease and even in advanced age has maintained his defensive excellence b/c he's just that amazing at defense's non-aging factors (positioning/fundamentals/veteran savvy/lower center of gravity)

AND kg's defense much like tyson's this year often single-handedly save possessions for the celts and was the single biggest contributing factor to their title win and subsequent title run...GP harrassed jordan but a guard can only affect an entire offense so much whereas a big man influences a lot more possessions

ric · Post by **ric** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:32 am

12 - 11!!!! nice matchup so far
its silly to me that a big huge versatile guy like kg only breaks 2 blks/game twice in his career and is beating out maybe the best defensive guard to ever play the game

naturalborn103 · Post by **naturalborn103** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:28 am

you must think iverson and javale mcgee are two of best defen best ever.

Kid That's Lifeless · Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:21 am

McGee's better than Chandler, look at the BPG.

Gregg Popabitch · Post by **Gregg Popabitch** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:13 pm

Kid That's Lifeless wrote:McGee's better than Chandler, look at the BPG.

McGee is also an athlete.

Gregg Popabitch · Post by **Gregg Popabitch** » Mon May 14, 2012 2:28 pm

KG advances

Best Defensive Player since '85: Payton vs. Garnett

Who was the best defensive player since 1985?

Best Defensive Player since '85: Payton vs. Garnett