Okay, this is Serial Thread

[The Ivy League Nigga]

Just like I haven't convinced you yet that Jay has done it.

So convince me. Tell me your most convincing theory that Jay did it without Adnan. Like motive and how it went down.

[Gregg Popabitch]

Nothing I say will convince you. You seem pretty convinced already. Plus what I think is pure conjecture.

I just think that the multiple phone calls to Jen throughout this whole period just sticks out like a sore thumb. A real sore thumb. Have you seen the call log? There's close to 10 phone calls (maybe more) to either Jen or her pager. She is called or paged more often during the period in question than almost everyone else combined. It's not damning evidence at all. Which is why I still have the 15% that Adnan did it. But Christine Gutierrez and myself seem to have the same theory that Jay was stepping out on Stephanie and was doing it with Jen. I still feel like Hae found out and if stephanie meant a lot to Jay too (which a lot of people also claimed during the most recent podcast), then that makes sense. Of course, this is conjecture.

Here's the thing, there is no hard evidence that should have Adnan convicted. All the prosecution had was a witness that could be a liar and suspicion.

They never did CSI on the liquor bottle, didn't do correct CSI on Hae's body or her car. There is absolutely nothing here that should lead to a conviction. I put one of my lawyer buddies on to the podcast and she's like "I don't get how he got convicted" (That is her opinion of course). She also felt that Adnan would have still been her prime suspect to which I kind of agreed to despite my suspicions of Jay....because of the information that we have. But that information seems very much an incomplete picture.

Okay, now your turn.

[The Ivy League Nigga]

I dunno bro. I've actually been pretty open minded as I've listened and, like everybody, through the first few episodes I was hashtag-team-adnan. But when no suspects with a clear motive or clear opportunity popped up, I slowly started to believe what Jay and the prosecution are saying.

From a purely common sense standpoint, I am hung up on two things: why would Jay want to kill Hae and even if he did what are the chances he's casually chilling with Adnan all evening without Adnan knowing what he did? Like I said, from a common sense standpoint (not necessarily an evidentiary one) I can't get past those two things.

I don't buy Jay killing Hae to cover up cheating with Jen. That's not only conjecture (like you said) but also, in my opinion, a really flimsy motive. As I mentioned before, if you believe Adnan dealing with multiple girls somehow shields him from caring enough to murder, why aren't you extending that same logic to Jay? Furthermore, when I was that age, people were hooking up nonstop, very casually. I never once saw it rise to the level of killing a witness to an affair. I could buy maybe someone kills the person cheating on them, but not some periphery person who just may have been aware.

Personally, I'm not looking at this from a legal perspective. Like I'm not imagining myself as a juror or whatever. If I had to think of it in those terms, I could see why a jury may have let him walk. I could also see why they convicted. From a common sense standpoint, with information I've been given, I think Adnan is guilty and Jay helped move/dispose of the body and maybe even aided in the actual murder.

I want to hear a theory more solid than that, but I think you'd agree there really isn't any evidence that clearly points the finger in a direction other than Adnan's. Even if that evidence, in of itself, still has a quite a few holes and inconsistency, as your lawyer friend said, it still puts Adnan as the prime suspect.

[The Ivy League Nigga]

And in terms of the calls, those haven't moved me as much as they have moved you. I remember, in 99, before texting, I would be calling everyone all the time. Like multiple times. Don't you remember that dynamic?

But, even if Jen was involved and Jay was calling her about the murder/body, Adnan still probably was the main dude involved in killing. Like even if Jen was an accomplice, that doesn't preclude Adnan's involvement.

[The Ivy League Nigga]

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-best ... st-2014-11

Theory #1: Adnan hired Jay to kill Hae, and Jay turned on him.
Theory #2: Jay and his friend Jenn did it.
Theory #3: Adnan is a psychopath
Theory #4: Adnan was trying to frame Jay for the murder.
Theory #5: Jay killed Hae on his own.
Theory #6: A serial killer murdered Hae.

[Gregg Popabitch]

I dunno bro. I've actually been pretty open minded as I've listened and, like everybody, through the first few episodes I was hashtag-team-adnan. But when no suspects with a clear motive or clear opportunity popped up, I slowly started to believe what Jay and the prosecution are saying.

From a purely common sense standpoint, I am hung up on two things: why would Jay want to kill Hae and even if he did what are the chances he's casually chilling with Adnan all evening without Adnan knowing what he did? Like I said, from a common sense standpoint (not necessarily an evidentiary one) I can't get past those two things.

I don't buy Jay killing Hae to cover up cheating with Jen. That's not only conjecture (like you said) but also, in my opinion, a really flimsy motive. As I mentioned before, if you believe Adnan dealing with multiple girls somehow shields him from caring enough to murder, why aren't you extending that same logic to Jay? Furthermore, when I was that age, people were hooking up nonstop, very casually. I never once saw it rise to the level of killing a witness to an affair. I could buy maybe someone kills the person cheating on them, but not some periphery person who just may have been aware.

Personally, I'm not looking at this from a legal perspective. Like I'm not imagining myself as a juror or whatever. If I had to think of it in those terms, I could see why a jury may have let him walk. I could also see why they convicted. From a common sense standpoint, with information I've been given, I think Adnan is guilty and Jay helped move/dispose of the body and maybe even aided in the actual murder.

I want to hear a theory more solid than that, but I think you'd agree there really isn't any evidence that clearly points the finger in a direction other than Adnan's. Even if that evidence, in of itself, still has a quite a few holes and inconsistency, as your lawyer friend said, it still puts Adnan as the prime suspect.

There isn't any real evidence though. The evidence is Jay's testimony and that's it.

I actually was anti-adnan in the beginning. I like the idea of a theory to be disproven when I go in instead of coming up with my own. But then I saw that there is no evidence to actually convict Adnan. None. They no foundation for this theory to be proven at all. All the police had was testimony from an unreliable witness to tie up loose ends that they had in their own story that they concocted. There is nothing to prove whether adnan is guilty or innocent. This may have led me to coming up with trying to concoct reasons as to why Jay did it which may be unfair but there is nothing to prove adnan's guilt.

At the end of the day, this guy went to jail and he may not have done it. If you're putting someone in jail, you better have more than "I think he did it". If that's the case, Michael Brown shouldn't have gone for Darren Wilson's gun because that's what Darren Wilson said happened.

[Kalel]

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-best ... st-2014-11

Theory #1: Adnan hired Jay to kill Hae, and Jay turned on him.
Theory #2: Jay and his friend Jenn did it.
Theory #3: Adnan is a psychopath.
Theory #4: Adnan was trying to frame Jay for the murder.
Theory #5: Jay killed Hae on his own.
Theory #6: A serial killer murdered Hae.

Is it weird that I'm hoping it's this? Not that I'd be happy about it but hot damn that would be an intense twist.

It's hard not to get caught up in the story of all this and remember that this is real and people lost their lives.

[The Ivy League Nigga]

There isn't any real evidence though. The evidence is Jay's testimony and that's it.

I actually was anti-adnan in the beginning. I like the idea of a theory to be disproven when I go in instead of coming up with my own. But then I saw that there is no evidence to actually convict Adnan. None. They no foundation for this theory to be proven at all. All the police had was testimony from an unreliable witness to tie up loose ends that they had in their own story that they concocted. There is nothing to prove whether adnan is guilty or innocent. This may have led me to coming up with trying to concoct reasons as to why Jay did it which may be unfair but there is nothing to prove adnan's guilt.

At the end of the day, this guy went to jail and he may not have done it. If you're putting someone in jail, you better have more than "I think he did it". If that's the case, Michael Brown shouldn't have gone for Darren Wilson's gun because that's what Darren Wilson said happened.

Seems like you're trying to answer "Is there sufficient evidence to put him in jail?" If you're answer is "no", I won't argue that.

But what I'm interested in is "Who did it?"

My only burden of proof is who looks most likely to have done it. Adnan has a motive (which is absolutely the most important thing to me, especially when no one else appears to have any beef with her at all), a witness says he saw him in possession of the body, and cell phone records put him with that witness when he says he was somewhere else.

As the story unfolds, I just don't believe Jay has any reason to kill Hae or throw Adnan under the bus. Maybe a plausible theory will come up in the coming weeks, but so far the best theories about Jay's guilt are literally just made up and not supported by any facts at all.

[Gregg Popabitch]

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-best ... st-2014-11

Theory #1: Adnan hired Jay to kill Hae, and Jay turned on him.
Theory #2: Jay and his friend Jenn did it.
Theory #3: Adnan is a psychopath.
Theory #4: Adnan was trying to frame Jay for the murder.
Theory #5: Jay killed Hae on his own.
Theory #6: A serial killer murdered Hae.

Is it weird that I'm hoping it's this? Not that I'd be happy about it but hot damn that would be an intense twist.

It's hard not to get caught up in the story of all this and remember that this is real and people lost their lives.

it would be on some primal fear type shit and honestly, it's quite possibly in the realm of possibilities because he has a couple of telltale signs of a psychopath which is why i've maintained a percentage chance that he's guilty of all this shit.

[Ramen]

At the end of the day, this guy went to jail and he may not have done it. If you're putting someone in jail, you better have more than "I think he did it". If that's the case, Michael Brown shouldn't have gone for Darren Wilson's gun because that's what Darren Wilson said happened.

I was definitely taken aback when the detective that they hired for the podcast said that it was a pretty sound investigation and more thorough than most.

[Kalel]

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-best ... st-2014-11

Theory #1: Adnan hired Jay to kill Hae, and Jay turned on him.
Theory #2: Jay and his friend Jenn did it.
Theory #3: Adnan is a psychopath.
Theory #4: Adnan was trying to frame Jay for the murder.
Theory #5: Jay killed Hae on his own.
Theory #6: A serial killer murdered Hae.

Is it weird that I'm hoping it's this? Not that I'd be happy about it but hot damn that would be an intense twist.

It's hard not to get caught up in the story of all this and remember that this is real and people lost their lives.

it would be on some primal fear type shit and honestly, it's quite possibly in the realm of possibilities because he has a couple of telltale signs of a psychopath which is why i've maintained a percentage chance that he's guilty of all this shit.

What signs have you noticed? I don't know shit about any of this kinda stuff.

[Kalel]

At the end of the day, this guy went to jail and he may not have done it. If you're putting someone in jail, you better have more than "I think he did it". If that's the case, Michael Brown shouldn't have gone for Darren Wilson's gun because that's what Darren Wilson said happened.

I was definitely taken aback when the detective that they hired for the podcast said that it was a pretty sound investigation and more thorough than most.

Yeah, but then the defense attorney Sarah talked to in episode 7 said there wasn't enough evidence to make a conviction. It's all flim flam.

[jamrage]

Having listened to the whole series again, I've definitely moved more towards the Adnan did it camp.

The fact that Jay knew where Hae's car was is huge. It really is the biggest piece of evidence that exists by a long shot. If Adnan didn't do it, I'm curious why he hasn't been adamant that it must have been Jay (At least in the parts we've heard)? Most likely I suppose because they both killed Hae, and Jay turned on Adnan to get immunity without having to admit to the murder. Adnan can't say Jay did it without implicating himself.

The Nisha call is also damning, especially since the only excuse Adnan has is that it was a pocket dial.

Still, the most intriguing bit of information that's turned up is that there might be a third man. When they went to that girl's house post murder to smoke weed Adnan got that call from someone, and he was talking about what he would say when people asked questions. Jay was there, so it wasn't him on the phone. So who the hell was it? Jen?

BUT

The jealousy angle still doesn't sit well with me, because Adnan actually met Don after the break-up and they were fine together. Wouldn't that have been a time when Adnan would have exhibited some form of jealousy? There's also nothing really in Hae's diary about Adnan being jealous. So if Adnan was the jilted lover he didn't let anyone see it beforehand.

I love thinking about this.

[Blockhead]

Just caught up with this. It's so fucking good.
I think they both did it together but, for the life of me, I can't fathom why Adnan wouldn't throw Jay under the bus just a little. To me, that alone almost makes me think he did it. I'm also very much thinking there is a third person heavily involved in all of this.

[Raphael De La Ghetto]

Adnon says he wasn't close friends with Jay, but they seemed to be pretty tight. The track teammate said Jay often dropped Adnon off at practice. Adnon let's Jay borrow his car and cell phone.
I think it went down the way Jay basically said it, but Adnon is very convincing. I go back and forth on it, but it's the only thing that seems to fit.

[Gyangsta 4 Life]

^^Agreed, but Jen also testified that Jay and Adnan weren't close. Maybe somehow to protect Jay?

If Adnan didn't kill Hae, it has to be Stephanie. She refused to speak to anyone about Hae's death AND was the only person to accompany Jay at his sentencing. Seems like something big was at stake for her.

But it's probably Adnan.

Either way, Jay was present when the murder went down, and that's primarily why his story kept changing.

[The Ivy League Nigga]

it's the only thing that seems to fit.

That's basically what I've been saying. I know the evidence against Adnan is thin/problematic, but literally no motive exists for anyone else to kill the girl Hae.

[Kalel]

it's the only thing that seems to fit.

That's basically what I've been saying. I know the evidence against Adnan is thin/problematic, but literally no motive exists for anyone else to kill the girl Hae.

There has to be something that hasn't been uncovered yet. Has to be.

Right?

[Raphael De La Ghetto]

^^Agreed, but Jen also testified that Jay and Adnan weren't close. Maybe somehow to protect Jay?

If Adnan didn't kill Hae, it has to be Stephanie. She refused to speak to anyone about Hae's death AND was the only person to accompany Jay at his sentencing. Seems like something big was at stake for her.

But it's probably Adnan.

Either way, Jay was present when the murder went down, and that's primarily why his story kept changing.

Pretty interesting the Stephanie theory. I never even considered her. But what motive is there? And a girl manually strangling another girl has to be extremely rare. And then the time frame after it goes down just happens to be perfect to frame Adnan? I just can't see it being anyone but Adnan.

[ackbar]

they were involved in the murder together & they both lied about it. that's the most logical conclusion to come to with the evidence that has been presented so far..
but there is definitely reasonable doubt & the motivation behind the lies is also unclear.

not claiming that to be definitive fact. i just don't really see any other plausible explanations on the table at this point

[Gyangsta 4 Life]

Pretty interesting the Stephanie theory. I never even considered her. But what motive is there? And a girl manually strangling another girl has to be extremely rare. And then the time frame after it goes down just happens to be perfect to frame Adnan? I just can't see it being anyone but Adnan.

Yeh, there's no motive that we know of. But Jan 13th was Stephanie's birthday, and the whole lending of the car to Jay thing ostensibly had to do with her. She's also been described as very athletic, so it doesn't seem too much of a stretch that she could strangle Hae.

Just feels like she's part of the puzzle somehow, especially judging by her subsequent behaviour.

[The Ivy League Nigga]

One thing that's been going through my mind lately is maybe Stephanie and Hae had beef (they were in the same small circle of friends) and Stephanie commissioned Adnan/Jay to kill her. The idea of Jay handling his girl's problems rings a lot more true than Jay having any kind of personal score to settle with Hae.

At that age, I remember people often getting in fights on their friends' behalf. The only fight I ever got in, in HS, had to do with someone talking shit about a friend who just moved away.

I could also see Adnan being involved on some "Hae is such a bitch, Stephanie is my true friend" type shit. Teens are so weirdly passionate about their friendships at that age.

I completely made that theory up, but it's the ONLY thing I can think of that would somewhat explain Jay's otherwise inexplicable

[Gregg Popabitch]

The stephanie thing makes no sense to me but that is because we don't know anything about stephanie's relationship with Hae.....at all.

[Kalel]

The stephanie thing makes no sense to me but that is because we don't know anything about stephanie's relationship with Hae.....at all.

Also, we aren't teenagers anymore. It's impossible to understand how they think. ILN brings up a good point about how loyal teenagers can be to their friends.

I have a feeling tomorrow's episode is going to be a doozey.

[Gyangsta 4 Life]

Also worth noting that there were no calls to Stephanie from the phone that day, her birthday. Yet Adnan called her twice the day before.

[Ramen]

So what that was Jay's gift to her?

[The Ivy League Nigga]

What do you fools think of today's episode? It engendered a lot of sympathy towards Adnan, but not much changes my general feeling that he did it.

[Gyangsta 4 Life]

So what that was Jay's gift to her?

A bracelet, according to Jay.

[ackbar]

once again making jay's story seem more & more problematic. it's obvious that jay's story is full of holes regardless who actually committed the murder tho

i dig the theory about the phone call at cathy's house. seems plausible

[Gyangsta 4 Life]

So was there a payphone at Best Buy or not? That's big.