Prophecy wrote:I think the perfect way to end the episode would have been transitioning from the pan out of Walt dead on the lab floor to a Montage of none of Walt's plans for those he cared about working out. Skyler plea deal not working, Jessie in Alaska but hooked on meth in the streets, Walt Jr never getting his inheritance, Marie alone and grieving, etc. Would've been the perfect way to close as Walt's plans only work out for Walt and always harm those around him.
Sounds like how it would have ended if it was done by the Wire writers.
The Wire writers would of had some corny Lion King ending where some young guy becomes the new Walt and some DEA agent becomes the new Hank, etc
Prophecy wrote:I think the perfect way to end the episode would have been transitioning from the pan out of Walt dead on the lab floor to a Montage of none of Walt's plans for those he cared about working out. Skyler plea deal not working, Jessie in Alaska but hooked on meth in the streets, Walt Jr never getting his inheritance, Marie alone and grieving, etc. Would've been the perfect way to close as Walt's plans only work out for Walt and always harm those around him.
Sounds like how it would have ended if it was done by the Wire writers.
The Wire writers would of had some corny Lion King ending where some young guy becomes the new Walt and some DEA agent becomes the new Hank, etc
valid point.
I was referring more to the non-season five endings where they'd do those wrap up montages and some negative shit would actually go down.
Apathwhy wrote:If he's in the lab and he knows he dying, seeing him finally take a hit of his own product before the reflection of him falling woulda been kind awesome
Philaflava wrote:The moment he knew they were still cooking, let alone the blue stuff, he knew the parties involved.
For the sake of argument, they actually made a point of showing that he didn't know that Jesse was involved until he was in the car with Badger and Pete. It seemed like he only assumed that Todd and Lydia were keeping on with it, at most.
Lydia by herself doesn't really have the means to do anything except make contacts to people looking to buy lots of meth and be an occasional source of chemicals. Todd and the nazis are a real threat, they're her muscle.
FWIW there WAS a meth ring without her, the first cook they did independently was with methlamine from another supplier.
They didn't bother tightening any of this up because ultimately I think they just wanted to use the ricin on somebody and she was an obvious choice for it. The loose pretext of 'she's one of the bad guys' was enough, so they just went with that.
When Walt heard from Charlie Rose that the blue meth was in Europe, he learned that Lydia was in league with the Nazis, the group he was about to hunt down and kill. Killing the Nazis could have made an enemy of Lydia, which would have put his family at risk.
he already knew Lydia was in league with the Nazis. And that the meth was in Europe cause he put it there. And by that logic, killing Lydia made an enemy of the people she works for, which again puts his family at risk.
I loved it overall, but kind of weird how he got all the ricin into a sealed packet for Lydia.
Also I didn't like how they didn't explain how he was able to just kick it @ Skylar's new pad and walk away while two feds were watching Flynn getting dismissed from school nearby.
now that I've allowed the show to marinate in my mind for a bit, here are my main problems with the finale:
1. the lydia ricin thing has numerous issues. im riding with #TeamDrizzle on that one. people defending it are being blinded by their fanboyism and its clouding their judgement.
2. it was too neat and tidy and too rushed, it was basically scene after scene of walt quickly tying up all the loose ends.
3. how was he able to so easily visit skylar and see his daughter, wouldnt DEA have eyes all over her place?
4. the abandoning of the watch. (i now come to understand it was necessary for continuity purposes, but when it happened it took me out of the episode on some "wtf I dont understand this at all" shit)
5. no major surprise/curveball/twist
6. when walt first arrives at camp nazi, he's searched real carefully, they check him for wires and weapons, everyone is watching his every move. then once he's inside their hideout, everyone just stops paying attention to him allowing him to hedge his way over to the pool table and grab his car dongle. c'mon now. if we go by the rules of the show, walt has the proverbial lucky horseshoe up his ass, along with about 3 rabbits feet and a bouquet of 4 leaf clovers. but the whole scene in the nazi hideout was pretty rediculous even by breaking bad standards. what hurt the scene even more was the fact that from the nazis perspective why would they ever even meet with a super heaty walt? they have more money than they can spend in their lifetime, they know lydia can get them more methlamine and the risks involved with meeting and killing walt extremely outweigh the problem it solves (that being walt getting caught and snitching on the nazis, which isnt even a big issue since he has no real evidence against them and who would believe a murdering meth kingpin?)
I'd have liked Jesse to ride out with some of the cash, and Lydia to be in a worse state when Walt speaks to her. Bleeding from the ears or something. Other than that, I liked it a lot.
Tommy Bunz wrote:he already knew Lydia was in league with the Nazis. And that the meth was in Europe cause he put it there. And by that logic, killing Lydia made an enemy of the people she works for, which again puts his family at risk.
exactly
I have no problem with Lydia dying, but there's no getting around that there are no strong plot-based or character-based reasons for it. Lydia is not some revenge-bent psycho badass, she's a greedy neurotic. It would've made tons more sense for her to push Todd on killing Skyler during the months Walt was in hiding, since Skyler saw her face. But assuming she would mount some bloody revenge campaign because Walt killed her pet nazis, it's just not in character for her. Also consider the logistics of the 'revenge for Nazis' idea... She somehow orders the killing of Walt's family without actually having any muscle to do so (they're all dead), for some nefarious reasons of revenge against Walt's family which somehow totally equate to taking revenge on Walt. And finally, the biggest flaw here is that there's simply no money or real security gained for her from doing it, instead she's only risking more exposure.
The writers wrote her death for pure meta reasons - they wanted to finally use the ricin for something. Considering how obsessed this show has been about closing loose ends there's no way they could've just let it go, and the setup here (trailing back to one quirky bit of character building from when she's first introduced) was too good to miss.
hustler wrote:now that I've allowed the show to marinate in my mind for a bit, here are my main problems with the finale:
1. the lydia ricin thing has numerous issues. im riding with #TeamDrizzle on that one. people defending it are being blinded by their fanboyism and its clouding their judgement.
2. it was too neat and tidy and too rushed, it was basically scene after scene of walt quickly tying up all the loose ends.
3. how was he able to so easily visit skylar and see his daughter, wouldnt DEA have eyes all over her place?
4. the abandoning of the watch. (i now come to understand it was necessary for continuity purposes, but when it happened it took me out of the episode on some "wtf I dont understand this at all" shit)
5. no major surprise/curveball/twist
6. when walt first arrives at camp nazi, he's searched real carefully, they check him for wires and weapons, everyone is watching his every move. then once he's inside their hideout, everyone just stops paying attention to him allowing him to hedge his way over to the pool table and grab his car dongle. c'mon now. if we go by the rules of the show, walt has the proverbial lucky horseshoe up his ass, along with about 3 rabbits feet and a bouquet of 4 leaf clovers. but the whole scene in the nazi hideout was pretty rediculous even by breaking bad standards. what hurt the scene even more was the fact that from the nazis perspective why would they ever even meet with a super heaty walt? they have more money than they can spend in their lifetime, they know lydia can get them more methlamine and the risks involved with meeting and killing walt extremely outweigh the problem it solves (that being walt getting caught and snitching on the nazis, which isnt even a big issue since he has no real evidence against them and who would believe a murdering meth kingpin?)
Yeah a lot of issues once walt got into the clubhouse of the Aryan niggas...shit was like every Bond cliche with Uncle Jack telling Todd "He called us a liar, let's show him before we kill him that we aren't liars." Then Walt moving over to his keys was something straight out of Weeds.
Lydia was asking for it. However, I was wondering if they were gonna do something to where Todd got to beat it up when it came to Lydia. I mean, he was pressed to tap it. Anyways, I'm pleased with how it ended, no complaints. I was wondering how it would all play out and what characters would act out in this one.
Question for those who've seen it:
Anyone else find it weird when homeboy got shot in the recliner that the lazyboy kept moving up and down like he was about to get up and shoot Walt and Jesse?
"tim dog! i hope he's scamming bitches in heaven.." - EichTurner
hustler wrote:4. the abandoning of the watch. (i now come to understand it was necessary for continuity purposes, but when it happened it took me out of the episode on some "wtf I dont understand this at all" shit)
I also didn't realize the watch was a gift from Jesse while watching live but even then this didn't bother me, I just took it as a Vince's artsy way of saying "time has officially stopped" for Walt.
5. no major surprise/curveball/twist
Jesse passing on an opportunity to kill Walt after the torture was unexpected for me.
hustler wrote:now that I've allowed the show to marinate in my mind for a bit, here are my main problems with the finale:
1. the lydia ricin thing has numerous issues. im riding with #TeamDrizzle on that one. people defending it are being blinded by their fanboyism and its clouding their judgement.
2. it was too neat and tidy and too rushed, it was basically scene after scene of walt quickly tying up all the loose ends.
3. how was he able to so easily visit skylar and see his daughter, wouldnt DEA have eyes all over her place?
4. the abandoning of the watch. (i now come to understand it was necessary for continuity purposes, but when it happened it took me out of the episode on some "wtf I dont understand this at all" shit)
5. no major surprise/curveball/twist
6. when walt first arrives at camp nazi, he's searched real carefully, they check him for wires and weapons, everyone is watching his every move. then once he's inside their hideout, everyone just stops paying attention to him allowing him to hedge his way over to the pool table and grab his car dongle. c'mon now. if we go by the rules of the show, walt has the proverbial lucky horseshoe up his ass, along with about 3 rabbits feet and a bouquet of 4 leaf clovers. but the whole scene in the nazi hideout was pretty rediculous even by breaking bad standards. what hurt the scene even more was the fact that from the nazis perspective why would they ever even meet with a super heaty walt? they have more money than they can spend in their lifetime, they know lydia can get them more methlamine and the risks involved with meeting and killing walt extremely outweigh the problem it solves (that being walt getting caught and snitching on the nazis, which isnt even a big issue since he has no real evidence against them and who would believe a murdering meth kingpin?)
Yeah a lot of issues once walt got into the clubhouse of the Aryan niggas...shit was like every Bond cliche with Uncle Jack telling Todd "He called us a liar, let's show him before we kill him that we aren't liars." Then Walt moving over to his keys was something straight out of Weeds.
Would it have made sense to include Madrigal in the ending as well? I think it'd be interesting if they managed to include them. Ive always been curious about who Lydia reports to and all. But probably wouldve been pointless.
Anyone else find it weird when homeboy got shot in the recliner that the lazyboy kept moving up and down like he was about to get up and shoot Walt and Jesse?
hustler wrote:now that I've allowed the show to marinate in my mind for a bit, here are my main problems with the finale:
1. the lydia ricin thing has numerous issues. im riding with #TeamDrizzle on that one. people defending it are being blinded by their fanboyism and its clouding their judgement.
2. it was too neat and tidy and too rushed, it was basically scene after scene of walt quickly tying up all the loose ends.
3. how was he able to so easily visit skylar and see his daughter, wouldnt DEA have eyes all over her place?
4. the abandoning of the watch. (i now come to understand it was necessary for continuity purposes, but when it happened it took me out of the episode on some "wtf I dont understand this at all" shit)
5. no major surprise/curveball/twist
6. when walt first arrives at camp nazi, he's searched real carefully, they check him for wires and weapons, everyone is watching his every move. then once he's inside their hideout, everyone just stops paying attention to him allowing him to hedge his way over to the pool table and grab his car dongle. c'mon now. if we go by the rules of the show, walt has the proverbial lucky horseshoe up his ass, along with about 3 rabbits feet and a bouquet of 4 leaf clovers. but the whole scene in the nazi hideout was pretty rediculous even by breaking bad standards. what hurt the scene even more was the fact that from the nazis perspective why would they ever even meet with a super heaty walt? they have more money than they can spend in their lifetime, they know lydia can get them more methlamine and the risks involved with meeting and killing walt extremely outweigh the problem it solves (that being walt getting caught and snitching on the nazis, which isnt even a big issue since he has no real evidence against them and who would believe a murdering meth kingpin?)
Yeah a lot of issues once walt got into the clubhouse of the Aryan niggas...shit was like every Bond cliche with Uncle Jack telling Todd "He called us a liar, let's show him before we kill him that we aren't liars." Then Walt moving over to his keys was something straight out of Weeds.
Would it have made sense to include Madrigal in the ending as well? I think it'd be interesting if they managed to include them. Ive always been curious about who Lydia reports to and all. But probably wouldve been pointless.
Wasn't that the watch that Jesse gave Walt on his bday? Makes sense he would put it down if he thought the Aryans were working with Jesse and wanted to take em all out.
^^ It was. I think this thread quotes an interview with Gillgan somewhere earlier where he says the 'artsy' reason for him taking the watch off was to symbolize a break from Jesse, who at this point is still considered his nemesis. But I thing VG also cops to it being a simple continuity fix first and foremost, everything else is just window dressing.
I was kinda hoping the watch would figure into some elaborate game of cat and mouse Walt was setting up to keep cops of his trail, maybe as evidence that he was there at that payphone. Marie's phonecall actually alludes to something like this going on with further implications Badger and Pete are involved, but they never detail it (no reason to spend time more time on this anyway)
it is what it is, the finale had alot of problems but overall it was still intense and satisfying and entertaining. i just had to suspend my disbelief alot more than I would of liked.
at this point im just trying to think of what they could have done different to make it better.
everything with the grey matter people was gold. keep all that.
i really liked when he finally was honest with skylar and told her he liked cooking and he was good at it, that he did it for himself. they just needed to explain how he was able to meet her without being detected.
i say scrap the lydia ricin fiasco. the bitch can still die, but leave the stevia as a red herring. have her be at the aryans hideout, Todd gets to see her bleeding out as he's choked to death. She's in business with the aryans, is knowledgeable on methlamine, shes also worked with walt. its not too much of a stretch for her to be at the meet. i realize shes super neurotic and would never actually show up to a heaty meet like that, but fuckit, come up with some flimsy reason for her to be there, its definitely better than walt magically sneaking ricin into a stevia pack and knowing exactly what table shes gona be at and at what time etc. etc.
i would have liked jesse to have gotten some of the cash. he's been captive for months, somewhere along the way he could have overheard where they have some of it stashed.
im on the fence with walts death being caused by a stray. but i cant come up with a good way for him to die. maybe cuz i wanted him to live...
I wanted walt to cook one last batch, but im cool with him reminiscing in a meth lab and then dying. its sortof or a moo point anyways, as both variations essentially do the same thing.
its funny to imagine him finally getting high off his own supply and then dying, but its also very rediculous and doesn't work in terms of his character or the narrative.
Since the show has made it point to every scene mattering, what was the payoff for Marie in therapy a few episodes back?
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drizzle wrote:^^ It was. I think this thread quotes an interview with Gillgan somewhere earlier where he says the 'artsy' reason for him taking the watch off was to symbolize a break from Jesse, who at this point is still considered his nemesis. But I thing VG also cops to it being a simple continuity fix first and foremost, everything else is just window dressing.
I was kinda hoping the watch would figure into some elaborate game of cat and mouse Walt was setting up to keep cops of his trail, maybe as evidence that he was there at that payphone. Marie's phonecall actually alludes to something like this going on with further implications Badger and Pete are involved, but they never detail it (no reason to spend time more time on this anyway)
yah, the watch is not even a problem in retrospect. its so minor, and it actually works fine for the story, its a bit contrived and artsy fartsy but it needed to happen cuz they fucked up in filming. it ends up symbolizing his break from jesse, along with the cliche of "time is up."
battlecatmeowstab212 wrote:Since the show has made it point to every scene mattering, what was the payoff for Marie in therapy a few episodes back?
her session she goes on and on about poisoning walt so the scene basically ended up just being a red herring that the ricin was for her, or that she would somehow attempt to poison walt. every scene doesn't necesarily have to have a "payoff." That scene was mainly just showing us that marie now hates walt and wants to kill him.
battlecatmeowstab212 wrote:Since the show has made it point to every scene mattering, what was the payoff for Marie in therapy a few episodes back?
her session she goes on and on about poisoning walt so the scene basically ended up just being a red herring that the ricin was for her, or that she would somehow attempt to poison walt. every scene doesn't necesarily have to have a "payoff." That scene was mainly just showing us that marie now hates walt and wants to kill him.
Ahh, I was hoping for something more. Usually when a scene is given that much screentime, there's at least a minor tick that pays off later. Was wondering if I missed something.
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hustler wrote:
i really liked when he finally was honest with skylar and told her he liked cooking and he was good at it, that he did it for himself. they just needed to explain how he was able to meet her without being detected.
You're overthinking this. They clearly showed that they only had two agents stationed in one car watching the front door.
You have to realize that this all happened months after Walt went on the run. After a while the probability of Walt trying to visit his family is very low and keeping multiple units on each family member and watching every exit just isn't feasible. They probably just got stationed there that day because of the rumor that Walt was in the area.
Walt's super fucking smart, i'm sure he could figure out a safe way around two guys sitting in a car drinking coffee.
in my personal breaking bad finale id have her randomly get hit by a bus, final destination style.