Dat_Triflin_Ass_Dude wrote:Yohan wrote:djjeffresh wrote:right now, where does Game of Thrones rank with the best TV dramas of all time?
I think the seasons are too uneven, though I love certain elements of the series. It started off great, I think seasons 1-4 would qualify for my top 10, but right now it sits firmly outside of my top 10.
It's not fucking with The Wire, The Sopranos, Deadwood, Mad Men or Breaking Bad, so for sure not top 10.
Re: episode 4: the battle scene was great. Had a smirk on my face as soon as Drogon entered the battle, loved the Arya fighting scene as well. I think the episodes might progressively get better as more characters are eliminated or get together. The show really benefits from not having multiple sprawling sets and scenes.
By the way, was it Dickon or Bronn saving Jaime? Or is the jury still out on that one?
U mean to say that it's not in your top 5? Cuz u listed 5 shows, which are all excellent no doubt, but I'd be hard pressed to name 5 more shows that'll push GOT outside top 10. This shit easily slides into my top 10, and I don't see how it doesn't break into anyone else's top 10 at the very least. No issues there with those 5 classics u listed as they're fairly unanimous with everyone, but I'd like to know which other 5 more shows u would put ahead of GOT. Seems to me that there's a possibility GOT may suffer in discrediting its greatness due to some peeps holding some kind of anti-dungeons n dragons/fantasy sentiment that holds them back from seriously considering this as one of the greatest shows. Obviously all of those other popular shows that are always mentioned as being one of the greatest were all set in the "real world". GOT's the only one set straight in full fantasy realm.
I myself was never into any of that dragons/magic, fantasy world bullshit before the show. I could still care less about any of that even after being immersed in the show and its world, and don't give enough shit to have any interest in further exploring other works within the fantasy genre. I haven't read any of the asoiaf books and don't care how they compare or contrast to the show. I'm just judging it as a TV drama. Based on that, it's one of the greatest. Can't say it's the GOAT as of now, but certainly deserves to be in that conversation. It's had all of the elements that other great TV drama shows have had. It's been great at doing what it has done, excelling in weaving through and presenting a compelling, yet very complex and intricate story without diverging nor lagging much if at all. And just like most of the other great shows, it knows the show must finally come to its end, and it's now pushing through the plots at an even better pace. They could've easily decided to milk the shit out of its world popularity and drag it out to at least another, 8th season, but because they didn't, that'll help this show in the future as one of the greatest in hindsight.
What's made this show to be one of the greats is ultimately that it's had a firm grip on and never lost track of the story's essence and the overall end-game it was heading toward with an inevitable, moment of truth, convergence of its key characters. And fuck the fact that it's all set in some fantasy turd world if u can't get over that. Cuz it's always been about human nature in the end. About how great the show has been in engaging and pulling the emotional strings of viewers through its portrayals of human nature in all of its shades. I don't see how anyone can argue against this show having done an exceptional job in fleshing out/portraying, handling/juggling all of the numerous characters, all the while somehow emotionally connecting the viewers to them by giving them a good look into each character's psyche. GOT has and have had its share of definitive, purely evil/or good characters, but what makes it great and drives the story has been all of those morally grey characters just as those types everyone loved from other great shows. And GOT probably has the most number of such key characters out of all those shows.
Honestly, the more I write and think about it, I'd say that GOT as a TV show is on the same level and pretty much equivalent to The Wire, which is one of my top 3. Right now, Wire is the only other show I can think of that similarly matches GOT with its intricate complexities where everyone's a chess piece. Similar themes with there being some sort of a greater, behind-the-curtains, unstoppable and forceful theme that provides the stage for human nature to play out and unfold through all of its various, morally grey characters. I bet someone's already made a youtube matching characters of GOT to ones from Wire. So yea, I'd say this shit is one of the greatest shows ever.
And btw, as to who saved Jaime's ass, looked to me like it's between Bron and Dickon, but not for certain.
Let me preface my post by stating that I like the show GoT very much. I was introduced to the books after I saw the first season of the show so there's at least 2 reasons for me to like the show. I understand that the books and the TV show are two different entitites, with book canon and show canon. I believe the show should be judged on its own merits and the books for theirs. I don't try to make comparisons to the books too often because it makes me seem more of a gigantic cunt than I already am, but even so they sometimes can be a logical reference point for arguments.
Besides the many things this show does well, there are, in my humble opinion, a few pitfalls which can, at times, make the show borderline unwatchable for me. In general, I think the show hurt more by the books as opposed to gaining because of it. Some things could have been avoided, other things not because of GGRM's abysmal writing speed.
In short, the reason why I don't think GoT is ultimately a top show hinges on a set of arguments. (1) Character and story sprawl, (2) Character motivations, (3) It's transition to a cliché show about dragons and good vs. evil and (4) Continuity issues.
Let's start with the first issue I have with the show: character and story sprawl. For every good to extremely good episode we have had (with the last one being an example of a very good episode), there have been so many middling episodes in between. In my mind, this has happened because of the ginormous cast of characters and locations which makes it very hard to pace the story properly. It is no coincidence that the better episodes were traditionally the episodes that largely took place in a single location and/or between a few major characters. This pacing issue has been at the heart of the show since probably season 2: I think season 1 was very concise. I maintain this was because B&W remained largely true to the books, although the books at that time were also more limited in scope. The character sprawl in my mind is closely related to issue (2), but in general I don't think the show benefits from having such a large cast of characters. It can only devote so much time to deepen motivations and the arc of a single character, which in turn sometimes gives a character an uneven feel. Or developments go too fast, which is tightly connected with point (4).
As for (2) character motivations, the show suffers from the books being too large in scope. In the books, there are a few more storylines which are super important to the bigger picture, mainly (f)Aegon and Dorne's political strategy of aloofness. In the books, book 5 (Dance with Dragons, to be exact), these storylines really start coming together, but the foundation has been laid as early as book 1. The storylines of Dany, Varys, Illyrio, Viserys, Drogo and Doran/Oberyn/Dorne in general are (greatly) impacted by the decision to cull important characters from the show. Varys, for instance, shouldn’t have been in the show now that (f)Aegon hasn’t been shown. So now, after x seasons of GoT, we are left with a pretty important character whose impact of the story has greatly diminished with nothing left to do. Dorne (especially season 5 and 6) was absolutely butchered by the showrunners, and for what? Jaime and especially Brienne’s storylines don’t make as much sense without Lady Stoneheart. Jaime has been aimlessly wandering around for seasons now, only now once again becoming a prominent character in the show for how long it takes. Littlefinger does everything to be caught and killed, and has seemingly lost all purpose in the show. For somebody who’s supposedly into using chaos for his own benefit and as widely regarded to be a master schemer, he is as see through as some Ikea curtains. Sansa should be a good politician, yet does almost literally everything to discredit her from that title. Sometimes it gets both laughable and annoying.
The biggest issue I have with the show is about (3), its transition from a show and/or series which defied the traditional fantasy genre to a show which has become exactly that, a cliché fantasy show. GGRM has structured the story so that it was able to be more than just good vs. evil, although there was always the omnicidal threat of the Wild Walkers. While the series attempts to stay true to that philosophy, part of its appeal is breaking some of the more prevalent character tropes in fantasy, the hero’s journey, the romantic, how to deal with bad guys etc. To me, it feels the show has thrown everything in the wind in order to stage a few large set piece battles. It could have been so much more then it currently is.
Finally (4): GoT just does a lot of stupid shit which at times makes it very had to take seriously. Just in the current season alone, there have been major moments of contuinity issues. Grey Worms fleet sailed a full episode earlier than Euron’s fleet yet is caught almost as soon as they land at Casterly Rock. Let’s not forget both fleets had to circumnavigate half a continent, which makes no sense if you place it in the perspective of the general timeline. Jon sails for Dragonstone and arrives almost instantly. Tyrion and the Dothraki teleport from Dragonstone to Highgarden in a moment’s notice. Last season, you had Varys in Dorne and Mereen almost at the same time. The logistics just don’t add up. It’s not just a single moment, it’s becoming a recurring theme in almost every episode. In the Battle of the Bastards, you had a wall of dead bodies stacked up almost 5-7 meters high. That shit’s just not possible. For a show that attempts to be as realistic as possible regarding military tactics, that shit’s a major immersion breaker for yours truly. I think we can go back as early as season 2 for these issues.
And then I haven’t even started on using nudity and gore as shock tactics without a real purpose.
I did list 5 shows off the top of my head which are, at least in my opinion, definitely and undeniably better than GoT. There are some shows I would list before GoT as well, of which Friday Night Lights and Better Call Saul are the most notable. I think I can come up with more shows, so I still maintain this show is not really a top 10 contender for me. It’s not about the fantasy genre, which I personally love.
The Wire has a very different goals as a show and I personally don’t think GoT is fucking with the intricacies of that show. Both do share a similar broad scope, which only hurt The Wire in season 5. The newsroom and its characters wasn’t really done well, even though I did appreciate the sentiment of what David Simon was trying to tell. The serial killer storyline also fell a bit flat, which makes season 5 by far the worst season of the show. I personally think season 2 was by far not as bad as many people say it was. I think the storyline on the docks was very good and it’s place in the show was logical. I can imagine if you just want gangbangers featured on the show season 2 was a bit of a disappointment, but IMO that misses what the show set out to do. I’m not sure if The Wire is the greatest show of all time, I used to think it was. The top few spots are really crowded and I don’t mind any of the 5 shows I listed as a top pick.
Anyway, this ends my way too long analysis of GoT as a show and it’s place in the top 10 shows of all time. Slow day at work today. Sorry you had to bear with me, I understand if you skipped my post after the first paragraph.