NFL Conference Championship Thread

[ric]

im glad minnesota fucking lost. fuck favre.

#1 dan marino
#2 peyton manning

at least right now. its doubtful that this upcoming superbowl victory will change anything for my personal top 2 but it might

jim & roy

you can make the case but in the end you are picking a player that dominated weak fields vs someone that dominated the very best to play

well said sir

[Philaflava]

Here is how I'm calling it. Favre is the toughest QB I've ever seen. With the gutsy performance this year he's easily in the top 5 QB list.

Peyton Manning is the best QB of all-time. If not #2.

Drew Brees is the most accurate passer in the league.

[Trub320]

Farve is a choke artist. I knew he was throwing a game losing pick before the game even started. Is he top 5? No.

[Positive A]

Life as a shorty shouldn't be so rough...

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=

hi


we had a great run

i have seen this game so many times, my expectations were fullfillled to the utmost proper containment


what is important is we all have to wake up 2morroa and keeep living this paythbetic existence


when i was young i learened we alll have a chance to be greatr, mayb e i never was the fastest, but i always won, i always scored

i unleashed many a bonial on kids who were nagainst me

the saints are the greatsest thing ever

i would do anything to be on the bettter half of the aftermath thAT is my epic heartache

jesus hates me

[Trademark]

Favre ended the last 2 of 3 championship games by throwing picks. All those fumbles were awesome, the Saints should have blown the Vikings away, so you Minny fans have one thing going for you, that you even made it a game was impressive...


I'll tell you what though, that field goal was good for 60 yards...Hell of a kick!

[an-also]

Here is how I'm calling it. Favre is the toughest QB I've ever seen. With the gutsy performance this year he's easily in the top 5 QB list.

There is no doubting that he is one of the toughest players to every play the game. I've seen him take beatings and still get up. Top 5? His mental mistakes in huge games over the past decade will probably keep him out of the top 5. There was no excuse for what he did last night. I kind of feel for viking fans because I went through the same thing a couple of years ago. Its a shitty feeling because he did a lot to get the team there but also throws it all away with a terrible throw. Its sad because he'll most likely now be remembered for the terrible INTs in playoff games instead of how dominant he was in the 90s.

[Philaflava]

I can't go Top 5 based on big games. Otherwise Marino would be #43 on the list. Favre had an amazing career and you can't discredit it because of some INTs in his last big games. If he isn't top 5, he's probably around #7.

We're talking about a guy who is 40 years old and is super human to an extent.

[an-also]

I always put favre in the top 5 in past years but hes probably 7th or so like you said.
Would you take Favre over any of these guys. Marino, Elway, Montana, Manning, Brady? Probably not

[Philaflava]

I always put favre in the top 5 in past years but hes probably 7th or so like you said.
Would you take Favre over any of these guys. Marino, Elway, Montana, Manning, Brady? Probably not

I'm not as high on Brady as everyone. I wouldn't take Favre over anyone of them, but I can't say I'd want Brady in there either.

I still say Brady was a product of an unbelievable system. He is great, but Favre is the better QB and had the better career. If you're only going by rings then obviously Brady but I don't rank/vote like that.

[bmurf75]

If Haiti had an NFL team and they played the Saints, who would the NFL fix to win?

[an-also]

I don't buy the system argument for Brady. Rings aside, his best receiver hes played with for most of his career was David Branch and he still put up around 4000 yards and 28 tds consistently. When he finally got Moss, Welker etc, dude jumped to 50 Tds and had arguably the best season a qb has ever had. I think if he hadn't gotten injured, he would still be side by side with Manning as the best qb in the game right now.

[ThaJim2]

he needs a 2nd ring to help get people to stop pretending he isn't the best QB in the history of the game though

He might end up as the best QB of the Superbowl era but he will never be the greatest QB of all time. That honor belongs to Otto Graham alone and no one comes close no matter how you measure it.

I think this is like saying Rod Laver is greater than Roger Federer, or to a less extent Babe Ruth is greater than Barry Bonds

you can make the case but in the end you are picking a player that dominated weak fields vs someone that dominated the very best to play, its tough to compare eras

First, I would disagree about how weak the field was. He played at the same time as a number of no question Hall of Fame QB's and still was significantly better such as YA Tittle, Norm Van Broken, Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman, and Bobby Layne as well as finishing his career immediately before Johnny Unitas. The NFL game at that point had surpassed the college game in attracting college coaching talent, integration and innovation outside of play calling. His domination was much higher than any other QB in league history with 6 seasons of being 3 standard deviations above the league average.

Its unlikely that he could put up anything close to that today but than again its unlikely that any player that played before the Superbowl era could make a BCS schools roster outside of a handful of skill players. That is not his fault and against the competent to very good competition he did play against he dominated like no one else despite there being 5 plus other Hall of fame QBs that did not win 7 championships or put up numbers that would be respectful today.

[an-also]

I will say one thing. Its a lot easier to pass in today's game than it was for guys like Bradshaw, Staubach etc. Receivers were fair game back then. Now, its virtually impossible to cover a receiver without getting some sort of flag. I think it was the Colts who complained about that after the pats bullied their receivers in the playoffs a few years ago and the 5 yard contact rule came into effect. If you watch some of the old documentaries on nfl network, you'll see guys from the steel curtain defense drill receivers to the neck constantly. Ruthless game back then

[Gregg Popabitch]

Ric tried to make the arguement against Brady by saying that "the weak WRs" argument is null and void because Deion Branch and David Patten and the likes were actually good.

really?

Where was David Patten before and after he played for the patriots? Has there been a Deion Branch sighting since he was traded to seattle? Yes, there has been. On the back of a milk carton. Have any pre 2007 Patriots WRs went on to become anything more then a #3 WR on any team after they left the patriots? Were they anything more then #3 WRs before they've come to the patriots?

Also, where were the great QBs that were forged in the Bill Belichek system before Brady was there? Vinny Testaverde? Bernie Kosar? Drew Bledsoe? Only one of those QBs has led a Bill Belichick team to the playoffs since he's been a Head coach in the NFL.

Not only is Brady a top 3 QB of all time. He is a Stetson man. That is the type of man that I would never doubt.

[ThaJim2]

im glad minnesota fucking lost. fuck favre.

#1 dan marino
#2 peyton manning

at least right now. its doubtful that this upcoming superbowl victory will change anything for my personal top 2 but it might

jim & roy

you can make the case but in the end you are picking a player that dominated weak fields vs someone that dominated the very best to play

well said sir

?????

Where the hell is this crazy Marino love coming from? Top 5 not even of QB's that played in the same time frame with him. Hall of famer sure but the dude put up crazy passing stats because he throw the ball up all of the time. 11 times in his career he was in the top 3 10 times in the top 2 in pass attempts in the league. You throw it up that often you should be compiling the yardage. Hell even Manning has only been in the top 3 4 times.

And based on your top 2 why would Farve not be at worst number 3 on your list? He threw it up a lot and complied a lot of stats.

[naturalborn103]

I thought everyone had realized by now to ignore ric when it comes to sports?? All you have to do is look at my sig... Also, I am happy that favre lost like that... throwing across his body and across the field when all he had to do was run for quick 5-10 yards.

[eternalreflection]

AFC Probowl QBs now Matt Schaub, Vince Young, and David Garrard

lol

[an-also]

Ric is a confused individual. None of his rants make any sense. He claims Brady is a system qb but on the other hand says Kurt Warner shoudnt be considered for the hall of fame. Kurt excelled in one of the most demanding passing systems a qb could have. The only guy who played that type of down the field passing system with success was Dan Fouts. Tweak holla at a ru

[an-also]

AFC Probowl QBs now Matt Schaub, Vince Young, and David Garrard

lol

you got to be kidding me

[an-also]

Minnie fans, thought on McNabb being your starting qb next season?

[Beastly Swagger]

Montana is the GOAT.

[Trademark]

Tha2Jim, while I respect the sentiment, there is no way that an athlete in that era could ever compete with the speed and size of today's athletes, but Peyton Manning could easily go back there and completely dominate. I've never bought the argument that any of those guys could be top anything in history... It's like claiming Edison's Electrocuting an Elephant is better than Apocalypse Now....

[rooski]

All you have to do is look at my sig

Where is that from? I think I need context because while I'm sure he's wrong I have no idea what he's even wrong about.

Ric seems like he takes an unpopular/flat out wrong position just to see if he can support it and still sound like he knows what he's talking about. Not a diss. Ric's a good dude.

[Roy Johnson]

jim & roy

Ric, here's what happened:

Peyton Manning will never be the greatest QB of all time. That honor belongs to Otto Graham alone and no one comes close no matter how you measure it.

Then Positive A chimed in:

Otto Graham? For real?!!??

And then I responded to Positive A:

No one even comes close, no matter how you measure it.

And that's my story.

What a cruel world this is when I can't even make fun of Jim without having that shit misinterpreted, yo.

And Jim is an intelligent guy, don't get me wrong. It's just that he's also batshit crazy. I hear Woody Woodpecker when I read his posts, you know what I'm saying?

[jazzmatazz23]

most devestating loss of my fan career. I am soul crushed

[ThaJim2]

Tha2Jim, while I respect the sentiment, there is no way that an athlete in that era could ever compete with the speed and size of today's athletes, but Peyton Manning could easily go back there and completely dominate. I've never bought the argument that any of those guys could be top anything in history... It's like claiming Edison's Electrocuting an Elephant is better than Apocalypse Now....

There is not a sport where yesterdays players could come to today and play in today's leagues but that does not stop us from having discussion on who the greatest is. All of the time on this forum people argue for Jim Brown, Babe Ruth, along with a dozen other pre 70's guys. Then you have all of the times that Johnny Unites is at least mentioned as possibly the best QB of all time this despite Unites starting his career the season after Graham retired so its not even the distance between a Manning or Brady and Montana's career and yet the later are discussed in the same breath.

And the distance between the game Graham played and that of todays is not nearly as great as you seem to believe. During Grahams time the league leaders where throwing the ball more often then they did in 70's. There was several well known passing attacks including the LA Rams and SF 49ers and the Skins and of course the Browns. It was not until the rule changes of 78 that his eras yards per game was passed significantly either. His era actually has more in common with todays game than does the 70s pre rule change.

But, most importantly to my argument, he was the closest to perfect you can get from the QB position. Asked to win, he has the highest winning percentage in history and went to the championship game every year of his career. Asked to throw the ball efficiently, is the most efficiently QB in history. He gave everything you asked for in his position. Compare that to say Manning well he could have done more in the playoffs, Brady could have put up more yardage, Marino could have been more efficient and the list goes on. Every other QB has some hole in there game while the only thing you can say about Otto is he played to early and again he played at the same time as 5 other hall of fame QBs.

[an-also]

Tha2Jim, while I respect the sentiment, there is no way that an athlete in that era could ever compete with the speed and size of today's athletes, but Peyton Manning could easily go back there and completely dominate. I've never bought the argument that any of those guys could be top anything in history... It's like claiming Edison's Electrocuting an Elephant is better than Apocalypse Now....

There is not a sport where yesterdays players could come to today and play in today's leagues but that does not stop us from having discussion on who the greatest is. All of the time on this forum people argue for Jim Brown, Babe Ruth, along with a dozen other pre 70's guys. Then you have all of the times that Johnny Unites is at least mentioned as possibly the best QB of all time this despite Unites starting his career the season after Graham retired so its not even the distance between a Manning or Brady and Montana's career and yet the later are discussed in the same breath.

And the distance between the game Graham played and that of todays is not nearly as great as you seem to believe. During Grahams time the league leaders where throwing the ball more often then they did in 70's. There was several well known passing attacks including the LA Rams and SF 49ers and the Skins and of course the Browns. It was not until the rule changes of 78 that his eras yards per game was passed significantly either. His era actually has more in common with todays game than does the 70s pre rule change.

But, most importantly to my argument, he was the closest to perfect you can get from the QB position. Asked to win, he has the highest winning percentage in history and went to the championship game every year of his career. Asked to throw the ball efficiently, is the most efficiently QB in history. He gave everything you asked for in his position. Compare that to say Manning well he could have done more in the playoffs, Brady could have put up more yardage, Marino could have been more efficient and the list goes on. Every other QB has some hole in there game while the only thing you can say about Otto is he played to early and again he played at the same time as 5 other hall of fame QBs.

I can buy that argument.

[Roy Johnson]

But, most importantly to my argument, he was the closest to perfect you can get from the QB position. Asked to win, he has the highest winning percentage in history and went to the championship game every year of his career.

Those Cleveland teams from the Otto Graham era were unbelievably stacked, though. They were almost like the NFL version of the 60s Celtics. You're taking team accomplishments and attributing 'em to an individual, and that's a major no-no. That's the type of shit that you get out of your system when you're in your early teens.

Some of your other points hold up, but you mention the team accomplishments first and foremost, which indicates to me that winning percentage and championship game appearances represent the top deal-breakers in your mind.

I know you're just trying to be different from everyone else here, but nobody will ever cosign the Otto Graham thing.

[ThaJim2]

But, most importantly to my argument, he was the closest to perfect you can get from the QB position. Asked to win, he has the highest winning percentage in history and went to the championship game every year of his career.

Those Cleveland teams from the Otto Graham era were unbelievably stacked, though. They were almost like the NFL version of the 60s Celtics. You're taking team accomplishments and attributing 'em to an individual, and that's a major no-no. That's the type of shit that you get out of your system when you're in your early teens.

Some of your other points hold up, but you mention the team accomplishments first and foremost, which indicates to me that winning percentage and championship game appearances represent the top deal-breakers in your mind.

I know you're just trying to be different from everyone else here, but nobody will ever cosign the Otto Graham thing.

Its not just that, he had the highest YPA in NFL history. This is the single stat has the highest correlation to winning. Yes his team is stacked all great QB's end up with great teams except Vinny T. Its not Otto Grahams fault that he played for the best coach in the history of the NFL. The same that its not the fault of Joe Montana that he played with the 2nd best coach in the history of the NFL. Its not the fault of Joe Green that he played with other great defensive players that does not change that he was one of the if not greatest defensive line men. Why is there so much of a rush to punish great players for playing with great teammates?

I know no one will agree with me here on Graham because he played before television and only baseball players get that kind of respect. He played at a time where everyone believes the game was a running game. No the NFL was only a running game in the 70's and pre war. He played when there was only 12 games so his stats don't look as good. He played a sport where the fans still don't understand what the important stats are in the game and instead think running the football is the key to winning and throwing a shit load of yardage means you are the best QB and are taught this by the so called experts be they studio or game annocers. I mean shit look at the love Marino is getting and the excuses made for him you would never know it from his apologists that he averaged playing with over 4 pro bowlers a year including playing with 2 receivers that had multiple pro bowl berths. He played a sport that has been over taken over by pretend football that emphases the exact stats that mean the least.

[Gregg Popabitch]

I think it is foolish to say a certain player is the greatest player to ever play but you've never seen him play.

I've been trying to stop doing that.