2011 NFL Draft/Offseason Thread

PopeyeJones · Post by **PopeyeJones** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:50 pm

^^^ Ehhh, the kids aren't in the union yet so they can do whatever they want. Von Miller is the only one who definitely wouldn't show.

Also, it's not like you can't have the draft if the kids don't show.

If I was slated to be a top 10 pick, I'd just split the difference and wear an NFLPA hat and then put my team hat on and still hold the NFLPA hat up. Easy.

Gregg Popabitch · Post by **Gregg Popabitch** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:44 pm

ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported the Wonderlic intelligence scores from many of the notable quarterbacks who took the test lat month at the NFL scouting combine.
Greg McElroy, Alabama: 43.
Blaine Gabbert, Missouri: 42.
Christian Ponder, Florida State: 35.
Ricky Stanzi, Iowa: 30.
Andy Dalton. Texas Christian: 29.
Ryan Mallett, Arkansas: 26.
Cam Newton, Auburn: 21.
Jake Locker, Washington: 20.

Kid That's Lifeless · Post by **Kid That's Lifeless** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:48 pm

Ponder's 35 surprises me, I thought it would be higher. Yes, I realize a 35 is really good.

ThaJim2 · Post by **ThaJim2** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:45 pm

I know I am repeating myself but this is yet another reason why the only reason for a rookie salary cap is to protect owners from themselves. Cam Newton and Jake Locker are going to be top 20 picks despite all the warning signs saying stay the fuck away.

Locker has a career 54 percent completation percentage which well sucks for a prospect you really need to be over 60 percent, he did not hit 25 on the wonderlic which seems to be the bare minimum with a very small number of exceptions (basically Marino and McNabb) to be an average or better QB sure he started a lot of games but Washington well sucked badly for his first two years. What the hell does anyone see in him that I am missing? Project QB never actually do anything.

The same with Cam Newton except great Comp percentage but half the number of starts you would like to see and again did not hit 25 on the Wonderlic.

Just want to say for all the shit the Wonderlic gets it has done a very good job of showing a cut off at 25 for QBs where there has been basically 2 prospects that have not hit that number and done anything in the league. So as long as you look at it as a pass fail test instead of thinking a smarter player/QB means better it is good enough.

PopeyeJones · Post by **PopeyeJones** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:22 pm

ThaJim2 wrote:I know I am repeating myself but this is yet another reason why the only reason for a rookie salary cap is to protect owners from themselves. Cam Newton and Jake Locker are going to be top 20 picks despite all the warning signs saying stay the fuck away.

True, but I think you're oversimplifying. It's not like all or even most of the overpaid "can't miss" prospects that are total busts have clear warning signs about them coming in. The problem is the owners want to keep the four to five year rookie contracts while also instituting a rookie contract salary cap, which is bullshit. If they want a rookie cap, make everyone an RFA after two years. It would be better for everyone, and for the game as a whole.

capable_keL · Post by **capable_keL** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:25 pm

does anyone want to help me create a 'phila sports bar' wonderlic test? your score will be then displayed next to your emcee name so we all know what kind of mind we're dealing with

best idea for the forum in months

ThaJim2 · Post by **ThaJim2** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:30 pm

capable_keL wrote:does anyone want to help me create a 'phila sports bar' wonderlic test? your score will be then displayed next to your emcee name so we all know what kind of mind we're dealing with

best idea for the forum in months

Dont have a clue how that would work but love the idea

PopeyeJones · Post by **PopeyeJones** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:43 pm

^^^ You'd basically have to have somebody administering it over a chat, and accept the fact you'd partially be testing how quick people are at searching the internet to cheat.

capable_keL · Post by **capable_keL** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:49 pm

PopeyeJones wrote:^^^ You'd basically have to have somebody administering it over a chat, and accept the fact you'd partially be testing how quick people are at searching the internet to cheat.

i was thinking some of the questions can be on historic bar moments in history and the users ability to remember who said what QB would fail, or which draft day trade was moronic, or whom is the worst VP in basketball who is really a GM. things like this can be replaced by the logic problems that will eat most of you alive.

i also have some white/euro questions because i dont think many of you know the difference between white, italian, spainairds, and jews

smh

ThaJim2 · Post by **ThaJim2** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:00 pm

PopeyeJones wrote: True, but I think you're oversimplifying. It's not like all or even most of the overpaid "can't miss" prospects that are total busts have clear warning signs about them coming in. The problem is the owners want to keep the four to five year rookie contracts while also instituting a rookie contract salary cap, which is bullshit. If they want a rookie cap, make everyone an RFA after two years. It would be better for everyone, and for the game as a whole.

I am against the rookie salary cap period mainly because all of the research shows that every draft slot still produces more value than the contract that the player signs compared to vets meaning rookies at every position are underpaid. Hell I believe a competely free market for rookies would actually lead to players drafted from around 4th to the mid 20s would actually make less than they do because of draft slots and the over all contracts of a rookie class would be less. I also believe that this would make bad teams better than the current system does.

The thing with the NFL is there rarely is the can't miss guy at least compared to baseball and basketball which shouldnt be surprising as how much easier those sports are to model and how many more different schemes are used in football. At the QB position I can only really think of 2 guys that where truely can't miss in the last 15 or so years at the QB position for example Carson Palmer and Payton Manning, one of them is an all time great and the other showed signs before a major injury. Cats that got drafted first overall like Alex Smith, Russell, and Carr all should have had huge question marks because of either games started or wonderlic scores. Sure teams and talking heads might like to shout about can't miss guys but than these guys are the same ones that talk about upside (code for no production in college) when those guys are even average about as often as you can win the daily pick 3.

ThaJim2 · Post by **ThaJim2** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:03 pm

capable_keL wrote:
PopeyeJones wrote:^^^ You'd basically have to have somebody administering it over a chat, and accept the fact you'd partially be testing how quick people are at searching the internet to cheat.
i was thinking some of the questions can be on historic bar moments in history and the users ability to remember who said what QB would fail, or which draft day trade was moronic, or whom is the worst VP in basketball who is really a GM. things like this can be replaced by the logic problems that will eat most of you alive.

i also have some white/euro questions because i dont think many of you know the difference between white, italian, spainairds, and jews

smh

Well here is a sample question I just thought of.

Why is Manning better than Brady?
A) YAC
B) Manning law
C) Dominess
D) All of the Above

Gregg Popabitch · Post by **Gregg Popabitch** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:04 pm

i'm writing up a test now as we speak.

btw, other notable low wonderlic scores:

Brett Favre- 22
Michael Vick - 20
Randall Cunningham - 15
Jim Kelly - 15
Terry Bradshaw - 15

The average score for an NFL starting QB this year was 28.5
The average score for the past 7 super bowl winning QBs was 30.5

Wonderlic scores for the NFL's starting quarterbacks:

1. Ryan Fitzpatrick 48

2. Alex Smith 40

3. Eli Manning 39

4. Matt Stafford 38

5. Tony Romo 37

6. Aaron Rodgers 35

6. Matt Leinart 35

8. Tom Brady 33

9. Matt Ryan 32

10. Matt Schaub 31

11. Philip Rivers 30

12. Matt Hasselbeck 29

12. Marc Bulger 29

12. Brady Quinn 29

15. Mark Sanchez 28

15. Peyton Manning 28

15. Drew Brees 28

18. Josh Freeman 27

18. Joe Flacco 27

20. Carson Palmer 26

20. Jay Cutler 26

20. Kyle Orton 26

23. Ben Roethlisberger 25

24. Jason Campbell 23

25. Brett Favre 22

25. Tim Tebow 22

25. Chad Henne 22

28. Bruce Gradkowski 19

29. Vince Young 15

30. Donovan McNabb 14

30. David Garrard 14

I couldn't find Matt Cassel's Wonderlic.

PopeyeJones · Post by **PopeyeJones** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:06 pm

^^ if you're saying that there have only been two "can't miss" qbs in the last twenty years, you're basically saying that in the other 18 years teams aren't stupid, they've just fallen victim to being unlucky enough to have to take the best QB available 90% of the time. That is the problem.

As for what the "research" shows, I don't know what research you're referring to, but I'd guess that would be the case after the first 15 picks or so. It's why they're only debating if a salary scale should be instituted in the first round.

ThaJim2 · Post by **ThaJim2** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:06 pm

Matt Cassel was not invited to the combine so you won't find his.

PopeyeJones · Post by **PopeyeJones** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:16 pm

Okay, so including Vick (or Vick and Favre), who wants to try to make the argument that the top 5 wonderlic scorers are better than the bottom 5?

ThaJim2 · Post by **ThaJim2** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:25 pm

PopeyeJones wrote:^^ if you're saying that there have only been two "can't miss" qbs in the last twenty years, you're basically saying that in the other 18 years teams aren't stupid, they've just fallen victim to being unlucky enough to have to take the best QB available 90% of the time. That is the problem.

I agree that this is a problem but I think we are going to disagree about the soultion. I want to do away with the draft because of this, under the current way things are done the draft slot is what the teams are paying for not the player and this is because both sides know that it is much easier to negotatie from last years slot value than it is to find the true value of the player. With true free agency the value of the player is much more likely to be found because a guy that would be number 1 overall would presumbably have a number of teams bidding on his services. So a player like Sue who had very few question marks is going to be paid more than who ever is this years top DT is despite this years guy if he is taken 2nd making more than Sue did.

I am not worried about top teams stacking talent either for a couple of reason the first I don't care if they do but second because of roster limits and defacto position limits a team like Indy or NE are just not going to go after top QB prospects every year and top QB prospects are not going to want to sit behind Tom Brady for 5 years.

As for what the "research" shows, I don't know what research you're referring to, but I'd guess that would be the case after the first 15 picks or so. It's why they're only debating if a salary scale should be instituted in the first round.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/04 ... rpaid.html

There is a link to some of the research there and I am pretty sure the same cats that did that updated the research or someone else did and it still holds true but my harddrive that had that info died and have had no luck finding it again.

The basic jist of it is all draft positions produce surplus value it is true that later in the first round to about mid way though the second round that surplus is greatest. So it is either rookies that are underpaid or vets are overpaid either way it crushes one of the main arguments for a rookie cap that vets somehow get the short end of the stick.

capable_keL · Post by **capable_keL** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:31 pm

Gregg Popabitch wrote:i'm writing up a test now as we speak.

you are co writing my project with all the love and open arms of military wife with the creative integrity and intellectual property of said test solely under the kel corporation with all the appropriate legal processess and copyright ownership.

luckily i am mad cool and will let you run with your excitement of another kel creation because I will never suppress art or a good idea. also, we have good synergy where we commune without words or even ackowledgment for months...so

welcome aboard

Nl5H · Post by **Nl5H** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:24 pm

alex smith getting a 40 makes the test null and void.

PopeyeJones · Post by **PopeyeJones** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:15 pm

Nl5H wrote:alex smith getting a 40 makes the test null and void.

Yeah, just spot checking it looking at the best QBs, Rivers, Brees and Manning have about median scores, Rothels (about minus three from around the median) and Brady (about plus three from the median) fall on either sides, and Rodgers (seems to be a high score outlier) and Vick (seems to be a low score outlier) fall on either side further out. I think the easiest explanation here is that in most cases the wonderlic appears to be pretty meaningless.

In other news, the Eagles have been offered a #1 for Kolb, but are looking for a higher one. Probably safe-ish to assume that it's the Hawks at #25 in the first round?

If so, as a 9ers fan, I hope this happens. Kolb is probably worth more than that pick, but the contract will lock them into Kolb being the starter for the foreseeable future. He'll be a better version on mediocrity, and a Hawk team that bounces around between 7-9 and 9-7 is probably good news for everyone else in the division.

ric · Post by **ric** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:44 pm

just quickly, all indications are that carroll wants hasselbeck back for 1 or 2 more seasons if possible and that he wants this pretty badly. cam newtons name is floating around. jake locker too. matt leinart as well. kolb is an after thought over here. regarding fans - my guess is fans think that using the draft to fill other needs is a good idea. some people think hasselbeck is done and think the club will go wayside if he comes back. as far as ive heard hasselbeck himself is probably done, especially with all the nflpa vs league bullshit. nobody believes whitehurst has any legitimate future in the nfl. the fact the seahawks are paying him so much money is a huge problem. or was a huge problem if things change in terms of contracts in the upcoming season.

PopeyeJones · Post by **PopeyeJones** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:43 pm

^^^ As for Matt, I would guess that if he was going to come back and it was going to work it would have happened before the lockout. Supposedly they were wildly far apart on the dollar amount, and enough folks need QBs this year that I'm sure he could command something on the open market.

I can't really imagine you guys moving that far up for Newton. Hoping to land Locker maybe, although that leaves you with Whitehurst starting next year.

Not that any of this means it's the Seahawks, but given the reports it makes the most sense. If they're holding out for a higher draft pick in the first, that basically means Seattle @ 25, unless they don't think Miami or Jacksonville at 15/16 or Minnesota at 12 is high enough (which seems kind of unlikely). Of course, the reports could just be BS as well, but if true, I don't know who it would be if not Seattle.

ric · Post by **ric** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:13 am

i wouldnt be surprised if some actually quality qb fell to 25. the last i saw mayocks top 3 qbs were gabbert, locker, newton - in that order. wheres ponder right now? last i saw mayock didnt rank ponder in the top 10. saw him throw during the combine coverage though and he looked nice, if brief. stanzi may still be left. i like stanzi but actually thought his replacement (vandersomething) would be better than him.

i hope and pray to god the steelers can pick up either a nice corner or pouncey jr. for corners im a fan of texas' williams

what happened to nnamdi by the way? is he signed or is he still free agent?

binary · Post by **binary** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:26 pm

Obviously, like the previous posts show, the wonderlic score is pretty important nowadays. Anyone who still lives in a fantasy land thinking it's unimportant is pretty clueless. Most of the best QBs score above-average, that's just the way it is.

A Kid · Post by **A Kid** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:47 pm

i thought they kept the scores a secret? wasnt there a huge outcry when Vince Young's scores were exposed?

i guess the twitter age compromises all

ThaJim2 · Post by **ThaJim2** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:10 pm

^They are not released publically but every QB scores leaks as well as any player with a very high one, a player of note or very low scores.

an-also · Post by **an-also** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:18 pm

lol @ johnny jolly

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:08 pm

PopeyeJones · Post by **PopeyeJones** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:04 pm

Overly excited about a new round of rumors that the 9ers have interest in trading for Josh Johnson if the CBA is fixed.

Seriously way too overly excited.

That's all.

an-also · Post by **an-also** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:23 pm

5 Dumbest comments made during the lockout

Hereגs a look at the five dumbest things:

5. Letגs boycott the draft
The idea of the NFLPA asking players not to attend the draft had a certain amount of symbolism and thereגs something to be said for that. For anyone who remembers Sacheen Littlefeather and Marlon Brando, symbolism has its place. But boycotting the NFL draft doesnגt exactly rate with turning down an Oscar.

In the grand scheme of things, this idea was pretty much meaningless for two reasons. First, the chance to go to New York for the draft is a once-in-a-lifetime event for a young man. Itגs a celebration of an indelible moment. Second, and most important, if the NFLPA thinks that players not showing up at Radio City Music Hall is going to move NFL owners one iota closer to getting a deal done, it is sadly mistaken. The draft is going to go on as scheduled. If those players donגt walk on stage and hug commissioner Roger Goodell, it just means that weגre going to spend more time listening to Mel Kiper, Todd McShay and Mike Mayock blather on about things like גskill sets,ג גhigh motorsג and גprojectability.ג

4. The refrain from fans that ticket prices are too high
I have read at least 1,000 emails from readers talking about how the NFL doesnגt really care about the fans. The logic goes that the incessant greed demonstrated by both sides is forcing ticket prices through the roof and that itגs never going to stop.

I get the point, but hereגs the deal: This is a free-market economy. The only reason that ticket prices are so high is that FANS CONTINUE TO BUY THE TICKETS. I used to have an editor at The Miami Herald who went through this ritual with me every year. Heגd get his season tickets bill every year and then would spend five minutes complaining to me about how he wasnגt going to pay anymore. A month later Iגd talk to him again and ask, גSo, Rod, did you really cancel your tickets this season?ג Heגd then sheepishly say that his wife refused to give up the tickets, so he bought them again.

So give it a rest. Either buy the tickets or donגt. But donגt blame the players and owners for the fact that the prices are so high.

3. We have to be illegal or weגll be illegal
One of the interesting arguments that the NFL attorneys tried to sneak by reporters last week at the NFL owner meetings was this bit of convoluted logic that was part of their court fight with the players:

In short, the NFL attorneys are arguing that the request by the players that they be granted an injunction against the lockout by the owners puts the league in a no-win situation. If the injunction is allowed, then the league will have to operate and put in rules that are violations of antitrust law, making the league susceptible to a class-action lawsuit. For instance, the existence of the גfranchiseג tag would be considered a possible antitrust violation because it is an obvious restraint of trade by the combination of clubs.

In other words, what the league is asking the court to do is to allow one system that could be considered illegal because the league canגt help but do other illegal things. This is like a gang of criminals saying that they should be allowed to use 9 mm handguns, otherwise theyגll have to resort to assault rifles.

2. The NFL is slavery
From now on and forever more, NFL players (and professional athletes in general) should be barred from ever making any reference to professional sports being anything like slavery. Now, college sports is a different matter (particularly football), but any job where you are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, doesnגt get anywhere close to being compared to perhaps the worst element of American culture, ever.

Sadly, Minnesota Vikings running back Adrian Peterson became the latest athlete to taste his toes in this regard. He was supported by fellow running back Rashard Mendenhall(notes) of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Maybe Peterson should stick to eluding tacklers.
(Winslow Townson/AP Photo)

גItגs modern-day slavery, you know?ג Peterson told Shutdown Cornerגs Doug Farrar. גPeople kind of laugh at that, but there are people working at regular jobs who get treated the same way, too. With all the money ג¦ג

Mendenhall later tweeted, גItגs a lot deeper than most people understand.ג

No, itגs not. In fact, while the NFL is a difficult, brutal sport, it is not even close to a civil rights violation. Sorry, but for Peterson and Mendenhall to argue otherwise is so ridiculous as to be moronic. Itגs an insult to people who actually suffered through slavery for an NFL player to complain about his plight. Heck, itגs an insult to most of the American working class for NFL players to complain about their lot in life. I have no problem with athletes defending their ground and what they have gained. But Peterson and Mendenhall were just plain stupid on this one.

1. For the owners, itגs not about the money
Cincinnati Bengals owner Mike Brown(notes) proved that making stupid remarks wasnגt limited to the likes of Peterson and Mendenhall. After the CBA negotiations broke off on March 11, Brown criticized the players, telling the Cincinnati Enquirer גIt came down to the obvious point that all the union cared about was the money and these other things certainly didnגt matter enough. Itגs a tremendous situation that they have and it has become burdensome for the teams. Yes, weגre asking for some relief going forward. I donגt think that was unreasonable.ג

Really, Mike? Thatגs all the players care about ג not the owners? Thatגs right, Mike ג owners are simply benevolent people who are in business for only the most altruistic reasons. In fact, if the NFL could come up with a profit-sharing system that assured that all the money went to the players and only the players, the owners would happily do that just to make sure they enriched the lives of the less fortunate.

Oh how I wish Hall of Fame coach Paul Brown were still alive so he could slap his Hall of Lame son. Dear Bengals fans, if you want to understand why you have one of the two or three worst franchises in the NFL, Brown is your reason.

binary · Post by **binary** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:37 pm

PopeyeJones wrote:Overly excited about a new round of rumors that the 9ers have interest in trading for Josh Johnson if the CBA is fixed.

Seriously way too overly excited.

That's all.

I see no reason to get excited over getting a backup. Now if they trade for Palmer or drafter Ponder, that'll be exciting. Johnson will just be a more athletic Troy Smith, meh.