Which albums began and ended "the golden age?"

[strategy786]

OK maybe this has been asked before, but I could not find it anywhere searching the forum.

We all talk about the "golden age/era" of hip-hop.

I'm wondering when would you all say it began and ended. Specifically I'm thinking of what albums (with years) for you signified the beginning of the golden age and its end/demise.

Here's what I would say:

Beginning:
1987- Eric B. & Rakim - "Paid in Full"

Ending:
1997 - Puff Daddy & The Family - "No Way Out"

Of course, I would not say nothing dope came out before or after these respective albums, its just that something shifted when they came out (and blew up) that gave birth to a new hip-hop era.

What do you think?

[Jaz]

Good post and one to think on...I would probably put BDP's-Criminal Minded before Eric B. & Rakim - "Paid in Full

[strategy786]

Good post and one to think on...I would probably put BDP's-Criminal Minded before Eric B. & Rakim - "Paid in Full

OK, so 1987 for the beginning either way.
How about the end? Wadaya think? For me the game changed big-time when Puffy blew up with his unoriginal, flashy, disco hip-hop garbage.

[Jaz]

Good post and one to think on...I would probably put BDP's-Criminal Minded before Eric B. & Rakim - "Paid in Full

OK, so 1987 for the beginning either way.
How about the end? Wadaya think? For me the game changed big-time when Puffy blew up with his unoriginal, flashy, disco hip-hop garbage.

Yeah, Puffy (who does get props for putting Biggie and Craig Mack on, but is not a good MC and I don't believe he has produced a beat in his life) and Missy Elliot, changed the game for me.

[step one]

although Puffy was big in 97, the indie movement (Rawkus/Fondle Em etc) was going strong so I be more inclined to say 98-99 when the whole Swizz Beatz/Mannie Fresh/Timbaland/Neptunes sound became prominent and the indies began to die off a bit.

also, corny as some of Puffy's stuff is, 'No Way Out' definitely has some good quality tunes on it like Young Gs, I Love You Baby, Benjamins etc

[lj]

i'd put the end much earlier ... probably around 93?

[step one]

i'd put the end much earlier ... probably around 93?

really? even with Jay Z, Biggie & Nas debut albums dropping and all the Wu Tang solos cmoing out 94 onwards?

[lj]

yeah, maybe even 92 ... all those you mentioned are definitely new school.

[strategy786]

although Puffy was big in 97, the indie movement (Rawkus/Fondle Em etc) was going strong so I be more inclined to say 98-99 when the whole Swizz Beatz/Mannie Fresh/Timbaland/Neptunes sound became prominent and the indies began to die off a bit.

Good point. So what album would you say signifies that shift?

[Thun]

Beginning: The Last Poets
End: Kool Herc

KEEP IT REEL

[strategy786]

Beginning: The Last Poets
End: Kool Herc

OK, that's a whole other take on the topic. Could you put years on those, or albums (at least for the Last Poets)?

[clark bent]

begin - radio

end - if you go chronologically its atliens if you go symbolically its stakes is high

[Thun]

Beginning: The Last Poets
End: Kool Herc

OK, that's a whole other take on the topic. Could you put years on those, or albums (at least for the Last Poets)?

In no way whatsoever was I being serious.

[thebridgeisover]

Criminal Minded - 03/09/97

[Reggie]

i'd put the end much earlier ... probably around 93?

really? even with Jay Z, Biggie & Nas debut albums dropping and all the Wu Tang solos cmoing out 94 onwards?

Yep. 1994 was when rap changed over from technical lyricism to street vignettes. Pretty much kicked off with Illmatic. 1994 was a classic year in hip-hop itself, arguably rivaling 1988.

[step one]

although Puffy was big in 97, the indie movement (Rawkus/Fondle Em etc) was going strong so I be more inclined to say 98-99 when the whole Swizz Beatz/Mannie Fresh/Timbaland/Neptunes sound became prominent and the indies began to die off a bit.

Good point. So what album would you say signifies that shift?

not sure on a specific album - Jay Z's 'Hard Knock Life' album was the one the first to utilise lots of different guests (Too Short, DMX) and producers (Swizz, Primo, Jermaine Dupri) with a mix of radio, club and street tunes to try and appeal to all the markets and started a trend that is the standard format for major label albums today so I'd go with that.

for the record, i like that album a lot.

[kimani]

This is difficult because it depends how you classify "golden age," whether you just use it to mean "good hip-hop music being released" or if you try to define it further. I've always kind of broken it down into two eras, the first being Criminal Minded through probably Enter The Wu-Tang, with most of the great albums of this period also being the most popular of the time; the second being after that (or starting with Illmatic) through Arsonists- As The World Burns, in 1999, and obviously most of these were not the pinnacle of commercial success.

[christian from austin]

although Puffy was big in 97, the indie movement (Rawkus/Fondle Em etc) was going strong so I be more inclined to say 98-99 when the whole Swizz Beatz/Mannie Fresh/Timbaland/Neptunes sound became prominent and the indies began to die off a bit.

also, corny as some of Puffy's stuff is, 'No Way Out' definitely has some good quality tunes on it like Young Gs, I Love You Baby, Benjamins etc

Mannie Fresh is the shit. Fuck what you think.

[Blockhead]

i think it began with the albums that utilized sampling and/or breakbeats. it was then that the production caught up to the rhyming and that also separated hip hop from other genres. the drum machine /rock stab style of production was made to sound somewhat obsolete.
bdp, eric b and rakim, stezo, jungle brothers, P.E. and a few others.

i'd agree with others that it ended around the time puffy got really popular. i think all the street rap of the mid 90's easily fits into the "golden age" category cause it's not like g rap wasn't rapping about the same shit in 88.
ironically, there a part of me that think puff's over use and flagrant use of sampling led to the eventual end of the golden era cause he popularized it so much it put an even bigger target on people who sampled. thus leading toless sampling and opening doors for the more electro sounding swizz bets and manny fresh type sound that eventually took over.
basically, to me, the golden age began and ended with sampling. obviously, i'm biased but i've always felt that way.

[strategy786]

basically, to me, the golden age began and ended with sampling. obviously, i'm biased but i've always felt that way.

Nicely put. I was thinking pretty much the same thing.

I see "Paid in Full" as the first big album to rely heavily on creative sampling (Criminal Minded could be argued to have been first). This along with Rakim's incredible lyricism, ushered in a new era in hip-hop: stuff started getting really dope from there.

I see Puffy's "No Way Out" album as being the beginning of the end not because he killed sampling by overusing it but because he so awfully abused it. He used cheesy but popularly catchy 80's samples like David Bowie "Let's Dance" and the Police's "Every Breath You Take." It sort of dumbed-down the art of sampling; to make a hit, just sample, in its entirety, something that was a dance hit 10 years ago. Creativity not necessary. He also completely ripped off "the Message" (not as a tribute), and used several other samples that had previously been used (normally a hip-hop no-no). He completely defied the long-standing hip-hop ethics of originality and creativity, and the killer was that it worked: he went mega platinum and many moronic but "catchy" songs soon followed.

I think a good argument could be made that it was really the takeover of the Swizz Beats-esque keyboard sound that closed out "the golden age." I'm not sure what year or album would best symbolize that. Perhaps 1998 and DMX's "Its Dark and Hell is Hot" or perhaps Jay-Z's embrace of that sound the same year on "Vol. 2...Hard Knock Life." Jay-Z still used some samples on that album but his and others' lame keyboard stuff certainly took hold, and soon after 1998 we were flooded with songs using soul-less, chordless, lame ("but catchy") nursery-rhyme-like tunes.

To me, in either scenario (the abuse or abandonment of sampling), it was ultimately the dumbing down of the music production that ushered in the new era of crap-hop that we have today.

[kimani]

I know so many people who frown on hip-hop/rap music due to its use of sampling and the fact that it is "unoriginal" and they "can't create their own music" etc etc, purely based on Puffy's style. It is very saddening, especially since, according to what they've heard, it is true.

[strategy786]

I know so many people who frown on hip-hop/rap music due to its use of sampling and the fact that it is "unoriginal" and they "can't create their own music" etc etc, purely based on Puffy's style. It is very saddening, especially since, according to what they've heard, it is true.

So true.

And they don't even know HOW unoriginal he really is because they don't know where he ripped off some of those non-80's pop samples from.

I really really really don't like Puffy.

[Dan]

Run DMC - Raising Hell

Dr. Dre - The Chronic

[lj]

the biz markie lawsuit led to/marked the end of the golden age, and that was 1991.

by 92/93, NO album was released any more that was as sample-heavy as 3ft high and rising, paul's boutique or fear of a black planet.

[step one]

the biz markie lawsuit led to/marked the end of the golden age, and that was 1991.

by 92/93, NO album was released any more that was as sample-heavy as 3ft high and rising, paul's boutique or fear of a black planet.

no, but samples were the still the backbone of the music after 91; Pete Rock, Primo, all the DITC stuff, even Dre's 'The Chronic' and 'Doggystyle' were full of samples and they were the 2 of the biggest selling albums of 92 and 93

[J-Serious]

86-88

everything after that copied the formula

[Blockhead]

the biz markie lawsuit led to/marked the end of the golden age, and that was 1991.

by 92/93, NO album was released any more that was as sample-heavy as 3ft high and rising, paul's boutique or fear of a black planet.

no, but samples were the still the backbone of the music after 91; Pete Rock, Primo, all the DITC stuff, even Dre's 'The Chronic' and 'Doggystyle' were full of samples and they were the 2 of the biggest selling albums of 92 and 93

word. that case set a precedent but it didn't really effect THAT many people. puffy put sampling on blast by jacking super famous songs and calling himself a "producer". he also cleared everything he used but it screwed over the lesser known producers who weren't trying to pay all that money to sample an obscure jazz fusion record. after puffy, most large publishing companies hired people specifically to head hut for uncleared samples. prior to puffy, there has been a bunch of sample lawsuits but his existence blew that shit out of the water to the point where even indy groups were getting sued in the early 2000's.

[RAZAH CUTZ]

once again this thread will raise the debate about what the "golden era" actually was.....with old heads contending that it was 1976 to 1988 and more modern types sayin it was from 1986 to 1997......

[Dat_Triflin_Ass_Dude]

basically, to me, the golden age began and ended with sampling. obviously, i'm biased but i've always felt that way.

Nicely put. I was thinking pretty much the same thing.

I see "Paid in Full" as the first big album to rely heavily on creative sampling (Criminal Minded could be argued to have been first). This along with Rakim's incredible lyricism, ushered in a new era in hip-hop: stuff started getting really dope from there.

I see Puffy's "No Way Out" album as being the beginning of the end not because he killed sampling by overusing it but because he so awfully abused it. He used cheesy but popularly catchy 80's samples like David Bowie "Let's Dance" and the Police's "Every Breath You Take." It sort of dumbed-down the art of sampling; to make a hit, just sample, in its entirety, something that was a dance hit 10 years ago. Creativity not necessary. He also completely ripped off "the Message" (not as a tribute), and used several other samples that had previously been used (normally a hip-hop no-no). He completely defied the long-standing hip-hop ethics of originality and creativity, and the killer was that it worked: he went mega platinum and many moronic but "catchy" songs soon followed.

I think a good argument could be made that it was really the takeover of the Swizz Beats-esque keyboard sound that closed out "the golden age." I'm not sure what year or album would best symbolize that. Perhaps 1998 and DMX's "Its Dark and Hell is Hot" or perhaps Jay-Z's embrace of that sound the same year on "Vol. 2...Hard Knock Life." Jay-Z still used some samples on that album but his and others' lame keyboard stuff certainly took hold, and soon after 1998 we were flooded with songs using soul-less, chordless, lame ("but catchy") nursery-rhyme-like tunes.

To me, in either scenario (the abuse or abandonment of sampling), it was ultimately the dumbing down of the music production that ushered in the new era of crap-hop that we have today.

Nicely put son. To me this whole discussion depends on the technical usage of the phrase "golden era" or a certain period that you define as the "golden era". Technically, as in when the phrase was being used by writers in articles and whatnot, most seem to agree or used it to mention that period circa '88-'89.

On the other hand you might have your own defined time period of "golden era". To me when I talk of golden era albums with my friends this is what i'm referring to -- like late '92 with Dr. Dre's The Chronic to about '97. Yea, maybe you can stretch it out a couple more years w/ dope indie shit like what Rawkus was putting out, but then you're not really talking about "golden era" shit.

The older heads who were in their teens or older during the '80s will say that period I'm referring to is the "new school", but to me that WAS the golden era. I appreciate the late '80s stuff and definitely think they're ill, but imo you can't compare that stuff to the early '90s shit which was far better.

[trickykid]

Beginning : Stestasonic - On Fire
End : Mobb Deep - The Infamous

Gloomy rap put an end to the golden era