Okay, this is Serial Thread

[The Ivy League Nigga]

I think Jay is certainly lying about some aspects of the story, the payphone may be one. Where they went and when they went there is another series of lies, for sure.

But I still believe the general premise of his story: 1) Adnan killed Hae, either with Jay's help or without it. 2) Adnan and Jay spent the evening trying to dispose of the body and other evidence.

The reason why I believe it is twofold: 1) I haven't heard any reasons/motives why someone else would want to off this likeable little girl. 2) I don't believe Jay and Adnan are hanging out for most of the day Hae was murdered and Adnan had no idea that Jay was involved with the murder and the disposal of the body.

[Tweak Da Leak]

[intuition]

this episode didn't really do much for me. seemed like a filler episode other than the revelation there was no payphone, which just goes to show jay lied more and the cops / lawyers were more lazy.

also kinda seems like the podcast is becoming a bit self aware.

[TeenageMoustache]

I don't recall Jay ever saying Adnan called from the payphone outside Best Buy. He said Adnan called, and said "I'm at best buy, come get me." I thought the cops added the payphone bit.

This episode had one interesting detail, and that was Hae changing plans at the last moment with regard to taking her own car to that wrestling thing. In one of the earlier episodes, the first cop to talk to Adnan states that Adnan told him he had asked Hae for a ride that day. Adnan recanted upon a second interview. Maybe I'm reaching, but doesn't look good for him.

[ackbar]

This episode had one interesting detail, and that was Hae changing plans at the last moment with regard to taking her own car to that wrestling thing. In one of the earlier episodes, the first cop to talk to Adnan states that Adnan told him he had asked Hae for a ride that day. Adnan recanted upon a second interview. Maybe I'm reaching, but doesn't look good for him.

the last three sentences are clear to me. the first sentence not as much
did they say hae changed her plans in this episode? i must've missed that. i just thought she told the other girl that she was driving & not taking the bus (not necessarily that she changed her plans)
also.. how does that first sentence relate to adnan?

[TeenageMoustache]

Yeah, maybe I am reading too much into that girls expectation of hae going on the bus that plans we're changed. I don't think it was specifically stated as such.

Remembering that he told the cop he had asked Hae for a ride that day, it sounded like something came up, and that's why she'd be taking her car -- that thing being Adnan wanting a ride somewhere. (I'm pretty sure he told the cop that ON THE DAY she went missing)

This just gave me some thoughts: What if Adnan loaned his car to Jay as the excuse for needing a ride from Hae? What if the call saying he was at BB came from Hae's phone? What if Jay was already waiting there when he showed up with Hae?

The Best Buy convo could have taken place before she died. Adnan could have asked Jay to park his car in that secluded section, and wait for him. That makes it easy for Adnan to get Hae to drive to that section.

[Ramen]

Jay said that when he got to best buy Adnan was standing by the pay phone. I don't think anything will be reveled that will confirm anyone as the killer.

[Kalel]

this episode didn't really do much for me. seemed like a filler episode other than the revelation there was no payphone, which just goes to show jay lied more and the cops / lawyers were more lazy.

also kinda seems like the podcast is becoming a bit self aware.

What about the girl that said that there was no way Hae could have been killed at 2:36? She said that Hae was with her or at the school before leaving for the wrestling match. I think that's a big detail if you also take into account the girl that said she saw Adnan at the library during that time.

Does anyone know how far ahead these shows are taped? I'd like to think Sarah has already planned out how the story will go and is just leading us on a ride.

[ackbar]

no idea how far ahead they've been recorded but it goes without saying that the arc of the series is already written & planned out.
a lot of production goes into this show

[intuition]

I read somewhere that she's producing them the week they are coming out at this point. Supposedly she doesn't know how it'll end.

[jamrage]

I think the biggest revelation is that it's much more likely now that Hae wasn't murdered at 2:36, but actually later than that which throws the timetable virtually out the window.

The call that Adnan received at Kathy's makes much more sense, I'll table the third man theory for now.

The episode didn't change much for me either, I think Adnan and Jay very likely did it together, and Jay lied to minimize his involvement which is why his story is so filled with holes. He probably held her from behind while Adnan was choking her so that she couldn't fight back. Adnan failing to insist that it must have been Jay still irks me.

Pretty sure Hae didn't have a cell phone, Teenage Moustache. Even if she did, it would have been analyzed and any calls would have come up in trial.

I do like that the podcast has caused other classmates to come out of the woodwork and bring their stories to the table. Perhaps more self aware, but it's also bringing new information which is awesome.

Definitely going to donate at least $20, haven't ever loved a podcast as hard as this one.

[Gyangsta 4 Life]

This just gave me some thoughts: What if Adnan loaned his car to Jay as the excuse for needing a ride from Hae? What if the call saying he was at BB came from Hae's phone? What if Jay was already waiting there when he showed up with Hae?

The Best Buy convo could have taken place before she died. Adnan could have asked Jay to park his car in that secluded section, and wait for him. That makes it easy for Adnan to get Hae to drive to that section.

This is plausible. Except that Hae didn't have a cell phone. But Stephanie did.

[T Rav]

I agree with you guys that yesterday's episode had more style than substance. It's cool that they're getting more interviews based on the popularity of the podcast, but that could also be a problem. If they're making episodes week by week, it seems there won't be some kind of big reveal, but more so just the documentation of a reporter and others trying to see if Adnan is actually guilty, and that's still cool with me.

Here's an article about an appeal into whether Adnan got proper legal counsel. It doesn't offer much.
http://touch.baltimoresun.com/#section/ ... -82038204/

If Hae Min Lee was your family member, how would you feel about this podcast?

[TeenageMoustache]

I'd be pretty upset. It bothers me a little bit being entertained by it knowing how much she and her family must have suffered.

[Gregg Popabitch]

Jam is on point that the biggest revelation being that Hae didn't die by 2:36. I think it was mentioned earlier that there was no payphone at the Best Buy and now we learn there wasn't ever one there.

To me, it makes this pretty obvious that the police and the state are part of a cover up. I'm not saying that they have something against Adnan but they probably had no other leads and wanted to make sure the case stuck to Adnan and Jay went along with it. It's probably why his story changed so many times because they pressured him to do so.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying Adnan is necessarily innocent. I think figuring out who killed Hae is a lost cause because all of the evidence has probably gone cold at this point.

[ackbar]

To me, it makes this pretty obvious that the police and the state are part of a cover up. I'm not saying that they have something against Adnan but they probably had no other leads and wanted to make sure the case stuck to Adnan and Jay went along with it. It's probably why his story changed so many times because they pressured him to do so.

i'm not exactly sure what you're suggesting here.. but that's not what a "cover up" is.
the police/D.A. had a hunch or intuition that it was adnan who committed the crime. they used whatever little evidence & tactics they could to clear the case & get a guilty verdict. that's how the justice system works. people take weak cases to trial all the time

[zombie]

Adnan did it, with the help of Jay.

This is also what I think. I don't think the rest of the episodes will change my stance.

Some stuff I do wonder like if they did plan it is...
Why the hell didn't Adnan produce a better alibi?
What made Jay flip on Adnan?
How the hell did Adnan get convicted with no real evidence?
What makes a dude sit in prison for 15 years without ever naming his accomplice?

Just started listening to this so I haven't read the topic fully and I apologize if this has already been said but , thee dudes were high schoolers, they obviously weren't thinking and that's why their alibi is retarded.

[Stoned Starks]

Does anybody else think they made a mistake in taking a break for thanksgiving? Seems like they lost some momentum.

[Ramen]

Yeah, I don't care to listen anymore really.

[ackbar]

not really. i was excited to listen to this episode.. i just thought it wasn't a very good episode
mostly because the attorney is insufferable to listen to.

[samdoom]

just caught up on this podcast this week. i burned through all the episodes except for the new one within a day or two. I definitely think that Jay was involved at the very least and that Adnan is most likely guilty as well. There is NO WAY that Jay would know where the car was without being involved to some degree, so I don't see a scenario where he isn't at least there after the fact, if not during the murder. Perhaps there is some secret third party that was involved that Jay is covering for, but it seems highly implausible given the timeframe and lack of motive for others. The two biggest red flags to me, regarding Adnan, are that he didn't testify and that he never called Hae's house after she went missing. I could be convinced that he only didn't call her house because this was due to the fact that she didn't have a cell phone and his relationship with her was more secretive, but I'm pretty sure the family knew Adnan and was ok with them being friends, it was just a secret that they had been dating. The first red flag I can't get past. While I know that juries are explicitly instructed to not hold it against the defendant for not testifying, his counsel gave him shitty advice to not testify since the jury would obviously be dying to know what his explanation was. My suspicion is that there were certain things that Adnan had told his lawyer or that could only be brought up during a cross-examination of the defendant that weren't allowed during the prosecution's case in chief that would have guaranteed him being convicted.

I practice criminal defense and its hard to say whether we would advise a client to testify in their own defense if we thought that the evidence was thin as shit (which it is/was here), but at the same time if the vibe was that the jury was believing what Jay was testifying to, it would be a damn near necessity for Adnan to take the stand to counteract what Jay had said.

I also think that despite Adnan's attorney having a good reputation, the tone of her voice and the way she questioned witnesses on the tapes was painful to listen to.

I think that the evidence probably didn't warrant a finding of guilt but I don't think that the jurors necessarily found the wrong guy guilty. Something to keep in mind when listening to the current conversations between Adnan and the host of the show would be to see how often he makes comments about the lack of proof or evidence. This is a difference between someone claiming their innocence and claiming that the case was proven beyond a reasonable doubt. In terms of the legal application, the jury should acquit in both scenarios, but in terms of assessing whether Adnan was involved and/or committed the murder, I think its notable that he mentions things like "it would be different if they had footage of me doing something" or "if someone had ever seen me flip out about Hae," etc., which kind of solidifies my suspicions that he had covered his tracks very well and knew that he'd ultimately be able to play dumb later on.

Who knows... The podcast is awesome though.

[intuition]

i thought the last two episodes were great. the story of the lawyers declining health and subsequently declining performance was very interesting, and the letter at the end of this last episode really got to me.

i just don't know. for most of the series i was under the impression he did it, but perhaps the case against him wasn't strong enough to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. but man, he's a charming sum'bitch...has me questioning everything again thinking maybe he really is innocent, and perhaps it's just 15 years of being jaded by the judicial system and prison that make him logical enough to not point fingers and blame others and ruin any future chances of getting out.

either way: podcast of the year for me. excited to hear it's conclusion though i'm sure it will be very anticlimactic.

[The Ivy League Nigga]

I know. Today's ep got me thinking "Anan couldn't have done it." But then I think about the facts and lack of another compelling suspect and I'm like "Dude must've done it."

Nothing's right, I'm torn.

[Kalel]

I don't think he did it. I've never really been able to convince myself that he did, it was just the only option that made sense which is why he's probably locked up now.

Really bummed that the next episode is the last one.

[Gyangsta 4 Life]

This whole thing has me watching a bunch of Dateline Mystery episodes on youtube. Scary how unreliable the justice system can be, and how many ppl are convicted on highly dubious evidence, usually because of a lack of alternative suspects and the compulsion to hold someone responsible for the crime.

The House On Sumac Drive


The Girl With The Blue Mustang

[ackbar]

everyone needs to watch the staircase miniseries if they haven't

[Gyangsta 4 Life]

Good look, checking it out now.

[jamrage]

I have to admit that the last couple episodes have left me feeling decidedly underwhelmed after how amazing the first episodes were. Once the podcast shifted from the investigation of the crime it became a little less compelling imo. Still a great podcast, but they're definitely scrounging for things at this point. It's time to end it.

I did like that they finally addressed the issue of Adnan not being more angry and pointing fingers at Jay if Adnan didn't do it.

Ultimately, nothing has been able to dissuade me from the belief that Jay and Adnan committed the crime together. There's virtually no motive that has come to light that shows why Jay would want to kill Hae other than to help his friend Adnan who had a much better motive. Adnan hasn't convinced me that he didn't do it either. I think he's a super charming and smooth person who made a really poor decision as a youth. That said, I don't think there was enough evidence to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt either. This might be one of those cases where the right person was convicted when they shouldn't have been.

I'm looking forward to the next story. Hopefully they'll do periodic updates on this case if things change.

I'm definitely not expecting some huge revelatory ending next week.

[None]

Whether Adnan did it or not is hard to say because the evidence and the case are flimsy, at best (outside of your gut feeling or it just makes sense, it is hard to definitely say Adnan did it). Jay's timeline, testimony and the evidence don't add up in a lot of ways. If Adnan was a brilliant, calculated sociopath committing premeditated murder then Jay's testimony doesn't make sense (even if Jay is trying to downplay his involvement, it only makes me doubt Adnan did it). We know Hae wasn't killed at the time claimed making the tight and implausible (yet possible) school to Best Buy murder scenario not work (I can't buy the strangling/actual murder/body in the truck could happen in a minuscule window of time the timeline would allow). It opens up a realm of possibilities to how, when or who killed her. But it also makes the State's timeline of the murder not hold water, so legally Adnan wouldn't be guilty if the timeline doesn't work.

It is easy to conclude Jay and Adnan did it together because it is the only thing that makes sense given the context of the murder, and the players involved. But I don't buy it somehow. Obviously we won't find out a satisfying conclusion to the story. That is probably how it should be. We shouldn't get the toothsome satisfaction of a case solved at the end for a number of reasons.

[The Ivy League Nigga]

Ultimately, nothing has been able to dissuade me from the belief that Jay and Adnan committed the crime together. There's virtually no motive that has come to light that shows why Jay would want to kill Hae other than to help his friend Adnan who had a much better motive. Adnan hasn't convinced me that he didn't do it either. I think he's a super charming and smooth person who made a really poor decision as a youth. That said, I don't think there was enough evidence to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt either. This might be one of those cases where the right person was convicted when they shouldn't have been.

Exactly how I feel.

It's really hard to come up with another theory that makes sense. That's maybe not enough to convict beyond a reasonable doubt, but it's enough to satisfy my personal opinion that Adnan did the shit.