R.I.P. Hiphopsite.com

the dead poet · Post by **the dead poet** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:17 am

sandbox was a piece of shit. hip hop site was slightly better.

bmore21225 · Post by **bmore21225** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:45 am

Yeah I used to order a lot from HHS also and Sandbox. I remember I used to order from BeatStreet in BK and also Music Factory. You just have to look for Vinyl on the net but UGHH is the place to go now really and Fat Beats sometimes.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 am

^ beat street was the best in terms of selection and price.

they didn't have as much indie shit but you knew you weren't paying more than $5 per record, where as the others were at least $1-2 more.

i just placed an order from fat beats this week and i was impressed with their order tracking system. their online storefront and its searching ability completely sucks and drives business away. if they can tweak it to show all new features and eliminate that drop-down search box they'll win.

i was about to place the SAME exact order on UGHH but i thought to see if fat beats had it and they did so i saved close to $13 on the order.

shopvack · Post by **shopvack** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:48 pm

Pizon wrote:
ardamus wrote:i only went there when they had the news once a week. lost interest when HHS started doing the updates everyday; didn't give me anything to look forward. their store gave some cool offers and i bought from there more than any other store on the net.
hmm, you think it's better for sites to do weekly instead of daily updates?

you wouldn't think so, but i definitely stopped checking news on the dl once they made the switch. they had a good format and fucked it up.

Sankofa · Post by **Sankofa** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:21 pm

Employee's been on-point in this thread.

News on the DL used to be dope.

Employee · Post by **Employee** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:24 pm

Sankofa wrote:Employee's been on-point in this thread.

It's difficult to read threads like these full of complaints about lack of quality, "mismanagement" etc. when virtually everyone who has posted in here is culpable in the downfall of these retailers.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:47 pm

Employee wrote:
Sankofa wrote:Employee's been on-point in this thread.
It's difficult to read threads like these full of complaints about lack of quality, "mismanagement" etc. when virtually everyone who has posted in here is culpable in the downfall of these retailers.

Yes, however it was their choice to do away with vinyl. Vinyl is what started that place (and Sandbox). It isn't the consumers/fans fault that they made a business decision to gamble on strictly offering digital downloads while sites such as Fat Beats and UGHH remain to focus on providing the very thing that made us go to these sites in the first place.

If we all know "downloading" is such an issue, then why eliminate the one thing collectors buy and offer "downloading" as your main product? I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but anything I like I support with a purchase. Still, I am from the school of wanting a material item in return when I make that purchase. Be it a CD, cassette, 7", 12" or LP.

HipHopsite was by far and away one of the best sites around, then their priorities changed and their downfall is on them, not those that download for free instead of paying them for that very same MP3.

Employee · Post by **Employee** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:58 pm

Philaflava wrote:
Employee wrote:
Sankofa wrote:Employee's been on-point in this thread.
It's difficult to read threads like these full of complaints about lack of quality, "mismanagement" etc. when virtually everyone who has posted in here is culpable in the downfall of these retailers.
Yes, however it was their choice to do away with vinyl. Vinyl is what started that place (and Sandbox). It isn't the consumers/fans fault that they made a business decision to gamble on strictly offering digital downloads while sites such as Fat Beats and UGHH remain to focus on providing the very thing that made us go to these sites in the first place.

If we all know "downloading" is such an issue, then why eliminate the one thing collectors buy and offer "downloading" as your main product? I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but anything I like I support with a purchase. Still, I am from the school of wanting a material item in return when I make that purchase. Be it a CD, cassette, 7", 12" or LP.

HipHopsite was by far and away one of the best sites around, then their priorities changed and their downfall is on them, not those that download for free instead of paying them for that very same MP3.

All you've done is create a roundabout justification for downloading music without paying for it. And the "Even if I download without paying for it, I still buy the physical copy" argument is wearing thinner by the millisecond. Let's say you are the exception to the rule and actually make the effort to go pay for the music you've already downloaded and decided you like it enough, are there throngs of other purchasers following your lead? No.

Artists are being robbed. Outright. The only reason an MC like HustleCrowe or a "producer" (and I use the term loosely) like Vanderslice are even mentioned in a negative or positive sense is because the cats who are ill enough and smart enough to create dope music have no more incentive to do so because no one will buy it to begin with.

The end result is a flood, a downright onslaught, of the ubiqutous "Free EP for Download" MySpace bulletins chalk full of jacked beats and MCs desperate for people to think they're tough.

Employee · Post by **Employee** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:10 pm

And even though vinyl is probably cheaper to produce during this window of time, it's still a game of diminishing returns. Why? No one is buying. People acting like there is some new boon in the realm of vinyl are naive. Aside from myself I personally only know one person who even owns a turntable.

No one gives a shit anymore. It's download-download-download-until-my-fingers-bleed-and-my-hard-drive-explodes.

Sankofa · Post by **Sankofa** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:53 pm

Employee wrote: cats who are ill enough and smart enough to create dope music have no more incentive to do so

I don't know, depends on priorities. I got to the point where even ill packaging wasn't making it fiscally viable to press copies of my releases and ended up going the route of the

Employee wrote:ubiqutous "Free EP for Download"

because I still enjoy making music.

Employee · Post by **Employee** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:00 pm

Sankofa wrote:
Employee wrote: cats who are ill enough and smart enough to create dope music have no more incentive to do so
I don't know, depends on priorities. I got to the point where even ill packaging wasn't making it fiscally viable to press copies of my releases and ended up going the route of the

Employee wrote:ubiqutous "Free EP for Download"
because I still enjoy making music.

Word. I can respect that. I have no problem with quality material i.e. Jon Doe, Sankofa, Illogic, being released for free.

I'm speaking more along the lines of the relentlessly shitty and embarrassing HustleCrowe/Vanderslice crowd pretending to be authority figures on the music industry when their greatest accomplishments are homemade YouTube video or an EP hastily thrown together with no redeeming value.

Employee · Post by **Employee** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:03 pm

Ultimately I'm baffled by people not even paying for the music/artists they like.

That's the bizarre monkeywrench I can't seem to wrap my head around.

As if buying a t-shirt from someone while they're on tour somehow compensates for downloading the same artists entire catalog in twenty-minutes.

Nathan Blaze · Post by **Nathan Blaze** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:11 pm

Sankofa · Post by **Sankofa** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:13 pm

Employee wrote:Ultimately I'm baffled by people not even paying for the music/artists they like.

That's the bizarre monkeywrench I can't seem to wrap my head around.

It's the society we live in. People want stuff (news/music/fashion) before it reaches critical mass, all the better to be sharper than the cutting edgers to better tally cool points. Everything's disposable.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:14 pm

Employee wrote:Ultimately I'm baffled by people not even paying for the music/artists they like.

That's the bizarre monkeywrench I can't seem to wrap my head around.

As if buying a t-shirt from someone while they're on tour somehow compensates for downloading the same artists entire catalog in twenty-minutes.

I agree with you to an extent, however there could be many reasons as to why the people on this forum or any other tend to lend towards that "downloading" option.

Again, I could be completely wrong but here are some reasons I believe.

1. As you become older, your priorities change. Bills, family and work just to name a few. We all don't have the time to run out to a store and pick up a cd, so downloading has become extremely convenient.

2. Money. As if this needs any explaining but with the economy the way it is, I find it hard to justify spending $15 on a CD when for the past years we've all been burnt more times than not. People have to become selective in their spending.

3. Quality control. Can we all agree a lot of the albums we praise just aren't as good as we'd like to believe? Spending money on 2-3 CD's could equal one's monthly cellular phone bill. If the quality isn't up to par, then the support lessens and that's across the board.

4. With the downloading you get to taste it before you buy. In my heart I believe if you had intentions of supporting the artists you will. If you don't like what you hear then you probably won't but those who planned on downloading anyway become a non-factor in this discussion.

If anything it just means a person who wouldn't have supported to begin with now heard your music which can only be a plus IMO.

Verge · Post by **Verge** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:54 pm

Employee wrote:And even though vinyl is probably cheaper to produce during this window of time, it's still a game of diminishing returns. Why? No one is buying. People acting like there is some new boon in the realm of vinyl are naive. Aside from myself I personally only know one person who even owns a turntable.

No one gives a shit anymore. It's download-download-download-until-my-fingers-bleed-and-my-hard-drive-explodes.

Mad turntables in TROY,homepiss.

Employee · Post by **Employee** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:11 am

Philaflava wrote: 1. As you become older, your priorities change. Bills, family and work just to name a few. We all don't have the time to run out to a store and pick up a cd, so downloading has become extremely convenient.

I get the part about the daily grind taking money out of the purchaser's pocket, but the same daily grind is true for the artist/s as well. Moreso now when you consider that a lot of cats who have remained under the "Mass Appeal" radar or the ones who have worked their way to any crumb of notoriety are aging rapidly.

And if it is more convenient to download so-and-so's product, why would anyone but the highly dedicated fan inconvenience themself in the future with a trip to the record store? The answer is they wouldn't.

Philaflava wrote:2. Money. As if this needs any explaining but with the economy the way it is, I find it hard to justify spending $15 on a CD when for the past years we've all been burnt more times than not. People have to become selective in their spending.

Any industry vulnerable to the whims of the consumer is inevitably going to suffer a downturn when the overall state of the economy is in shambles. But the golden rule stays constant: Hot shit is hot shit and that hot shit sells. Kicks, video games, absurd electronic products, movies etc. When someone devotes a significant portion of their time on earth to creating a piece of music that hits you in the gut/brain/heart, normally that shit would be bought. That simply isn't the case anymore. Beyond that, there is an entitlement mentality infecting Hip Hop that originated sometime around the turn of the new millenium. Everyone feels they're entitled because they have a computer and a high-speed connection. Everyone feels entitled because for thirty-seven seconds in 2003 they interacted with MC Underground Superstar on a message board. Everyone feels entitled because according to them virtually all music spanning all genres is subpar. It's a juvenile mindset at best.

Philaflava wrote:3. Quality control. Can we all agree a lot of the albums we praise just aren't as good as we'd like to believe? Spending money on 2-3 CD's could equal one's monthly cellular phone bill. If the quality isn't up to par, then the support lessens and that's across the board.

Quality, in my mind, has no bearing here. Wack shit has existed from the art form's inception. Be it griots or gangbangers or gat-toting gingers. Each one of us is cognizant enough to determine what's going to end up in the Used Bin and what will linger in rotation for more than a night on the town.

Philaflava wrote:4. With the downloading you get to taste it before you buy.

No. With downloading you take on the roles of judge/jury/executioner without any commitment. A quick click and you're off to the next test drive.

Philaflava wrote:In my heart I believe if you had intentions of supporting the artists you will. If you don't like what you hear then you probably won't but those who planned on downloading anyway become a non-factor in this discussion.

Record sales don't support that theory, though. In the absence of cold hard statistics regarding those who "test drive" the album and then buy it down the road, I'm confident in guessing it is a dismal percentage.

Take MURS' kind-of-new album for example. His profile is raised, he touts a massive "underground" fan base, remarkably succesful work ethic/track record, collaborating with respected, skilled household names and he sells 12K out-the-gate. Okay, yeah, 12K isn't a number to be balked at. Presumably his best ever first-week. But he would've done close to 20K, if not exceeded it, had his album been as easy to get at as a phone number.

Philaflava wrote:If anything it just means a person who wouldn't have supported to begin with now heard your music which can only be a plus IMO.

They can hear it until their ears bleed, but they still aren't paying for it yesterday, today or tomorrow.

vinylpops · Post by **vinylpops** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:56 am

Damn, Employee dropping the factuals.

reevolution · Post by **reevolution** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:28 pm

Was sitting at the In-N-Out burger across from their physical location a few nights ago... couldn't see the sign anymore. Looks like they packed up shop and folded.

step one · Post by **step one** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:50 am

the other problem with downloading is the way that artists/labels/A&Rs leak EVERYTHING that is recorded. Fans end up having to download it all because you're never sure if the song in question will even make it to the retail release so in that case illegal/free d-load is the only option.
that new Em/Dre/50 is a prime example of this fuckery. it leaked as a 'reference' with just Em, then a verse at a time, and then the full version.and theres a 50-50 chance if it will be on anyones album.

Moolah · Post by **Moolah** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:11 am

I do think quality is a fairly major issue. I don't even really download albums anymore. Maybe a couple a year. I just don't like any new music really.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:30 am

Emp -

The consumer will never be concerned with the artist/company. That's not the way it works, nor should it ever be. While most consumers grind consist of that nightmare cubicle you fear, the artists have somewhat of a luxury if you will. If artists aren't selling CD's anymore then they'll focus on touring. You adjust like the consumer adjusts their spending.

Quality is indeed an issue, a big one. Take a Mos Def for example. Most of us ran out and bought Black On Both Sides but were burned by his follow-ups and not just his one follow-up but his past 2-3 albums. In 2009 would you invest another $15 in a Mos Def CD without listening to it first?

Just because you like an artists doesn't mean you're obligated to support them with each effort. If that was the case I'd be dead broke supporting Kool Keith's absurd spending habits.

Quality is a much bigger issues than you give it credit for.

You have issues with downloading because you say you become a judge or critic. Well as a music fan you should. We have that right to our opinion, the way we get that right is up for debate. While I have no problem with people sampling the product before buying, you clearly think if one does that it eliminates them for actually purchasing the album. I feel if a person has intentions of downloading they're going to do it regardless of the outcome. Those who are like me (which I'm sure are a few) will listen to an album or just bits to get a feel and if they like it they'll buy it.

I get a lot of free shit but I went out and bought the new Roots on CD after receiving a promo. Same goes for Atmosphere and Elzhi. In fact I copped the vinyl too. Now that isn't enough to save the industry, but there are people out there like that. People who appreciate music, artists and enjoy giving back.

The new MURS album was on a major and sold better than any other MURS album to my knowledge. He had a bigger budget for a video and album than any other. He knew going in he wasn't going to get a plaque from this, but look how many more people are now aware of MURS? He parlayed that into a fucking GATORADE commercial.

That is what music has become, you let the music pimp you and you parlay that into other opportunities (if you're good enough). Touring being the biggest.

The strongest survive and the weak go back to their 9-5s, where they probably belong anyways. The recession is really the hip-hop holocaust we've all been waiting for.

Reggie · Post by **Reggie** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:09 am

sandbox wasn't always unreliable. Early on, they were very fast with shipments and their customer service was good. It all fell apart sometime around 2001 or 2002.

In some ways, it is regrettable to see the loss of recorded music as a commodity. But to see these giant record company ponzi scheme assholes get their comeuppance is somewhat satisfying.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:34 am

Reggie wrote:sandbox wasn't always unreliable. Early on, they were very fast with shipments and their customer service was good. It all fell apart sometime around 2001 or 2002.

They were reliable but I don't agree with them being very fast. Maybe if you lived in the tri-state area but it took 2-3 weeks for packages to arrive in Florida.

Ed was good with customer support but I think when they changed was when his mom was running the show. I don't know what the deal is but I'm almost certain when he let his dream become his mother's business it went to shit.

Thun · Post by **Thun** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:37 am

I remember when the front page of sandbox, with all the real audio snippets, was like a fucking godsend.

Now I stream high-def videos of Rakim rapping the Constitution over Jesus Christ beats with Napoleon Bonaparte on the wheels of steel filmed by Spike Lee on the summit of Mt. Everest while the entire discography of all rap music ever is downloaded in the background and I'm like "meh."

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:39 am

Request for somebody to up that Rakim infomercial about the gold grillz. You know the extremely awkward and uncomfortable commercial where you almost believe there is a gun to his head?

step one · Post by **step one** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:09 pm

some proper talk in this thread.
I dont owe the music industry or anyone in it a living. If they drop good product I'll spend.
during a clear out the other day I noticed I had The Chronic & Cuban Linx on all 3 formats but I'm yet to see my 'investment' reap a decent follow up from Dre or Rae. Its by no means an industry that rewards loyalty...

blueprint · Post by **blueprint** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:55 pm

Damn, Employee dropping the factuals.

blueprint · Post by **blueprint** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:18 pm

I would also like to add that I disagree with the assessment that HHS and Sandbox have fallen off because they don't carry vinyl anymore. I think if you were to ask either retailer what % of their sales was coming from vinyl i would bet that vinyl sales was much smaller %--i would bet no more than 10% of their sales. I run an on-line store and vinyl sales is about 2-5% of our total sales at most. Plus, the markup on vinyl is pretty small, and almost not worth selling after you factor in the shipping and space it takes up. HHS also had a retail store that they had to pay rent on, so I know this added to their overhead.

I think people don't fuck with sandbox as much because a) their shopping cart is outdated, b) their customer service can be bad, and c) because a lot of those same people would rather download music now.

I used to order a lot of stuff from HHS before they stopped selling CDs.

YouTube · Post by **Philaflava** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:10 pm

While that might be all true, the fact is both sites saw their decline around the same time they stopped selling vinyl. And while that vinyl may make up a smaller percentage of revenue for said companies, it was also what made them stand-out among the others. It's like your favorite restaurant eliminating your favorite dish. You may not order it all the time but if that option is completely gone you may have doubts about going to that restaurant again.

What was their decline was their assessment of the market place and their priorities. They (Ed and Pizzo) probably thought it was easier and more efficient to slang CD's for many reasons but the market-up being the most obvious. Sandbox fall also has to do with their lack of 'new age' integration. It was a site that seemed to have been created by a person who just read HTML for dummies. They refused to advance.

HHS wanted to corner the entire hip-hop internet by providing more than a few outlets. They saw other sites providing daily news so they then decided to do the same. They saw other sites (UGHH) have successful forums, so they added one too.

Now that they've completely eliminated both vinyl and CD's there is very little reason for anyone to visit that site. As for Sandbox they still offer CD's but like you mentioned both their ordering system and customer support have been in question for years. That is why the majority of that site's income is now from eBAY sales and guess what they're selling? Look no further but HHS is selling the same exact thing.

Ironic, dontcha think?