Converting Tapes to MP3: Input needed

bad-cop · Post by **bad-cop** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:51 am

I know there have been a few discussions here about this topic but I’d like to reopen this again (especially since I’ve got some treats to share…)

I bought a cheap portable USB tape player to convert tapes to MP3. However, I’m really disappointed in the sound quality – I guess you get what you pay for right?

Should I invest in a more expensive kit, e.g. Ion Tape2PC USB Twin Cassette Deck or similar?

Is the sound quality compromised using USB vs RCA /35mm connection?
If yes, then USB tape decks are obsolete yes? All computers have 35mm connections through the sound card. I can just invest in normal analogue deck!?

Note: I use Audacity on a PC which seems to be industry standard. I do find the hiss reduction feature a limited though, it creates a tinkering sound in the background.

Input appreciated

Thanks

BC

aleph · Post by **aleph** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:05 pm

Was it Digital Stimulation that said the same thing about the USB player? Maybe even about the Ion? I do hear that USBs in general don’t have a great rep. I could be wrong.

I do all my rips using an analogue deck, or I did anyway, since it recently broke down. I’m looking to get it repaired but if it proves too costly, I plan to get a new one. Not cheap but the use I can get out of it would make it worthwhile.

It’s impossible to judge myself but I think the rips sound pretty good, at least to my ears. This is of course assuming that we’re working with decent material and the levels are kosher. I use Audacity too, and yeah- I use the noise removal function only in extreme cases like really bad static. Hiss is going to be inevitable and besides, some heads here even find it soothing. Noise removal always leaves a residue that’s worse than hiss.

Hope that helps

bad-cop · Post by **bad-cop** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:54 pm

Thanks, yes useful. I'm leaning towards getting an analogue deck as well, but I'd like to get confirmed whether USB connection is less favorable compared to RCA i terms of quality. I don't really have the space for a proper deck so may try a decent walkman.

Anyone else who can drop some knowledge?

BC

skater4041 · Post by **skater4041** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:35 pm

I'd like to hear if anyone has any tips on this as well. I'm trying to use a portable cassette player to audacity using an RCA cable and I don't really like the quality that much.

Oh yeah, the tape is the World Renown promo tape dated 08/15/94

Odnet · Post by **Odnet** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:51 pm

Hit up a Goodwill and look for an old, quality deck. You might find something dope for cheap.

Clean the heads and then play a tape you don't give a fuck about in it a few times just to make sure it won't fuck anything up.

aleph · Post by **aleph** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:08 pm

^That's ideal. I've been looking up and down in thrift stores and Salvation Army places but no luck yet

WiCkEd22 · Post by **WiCkEd22** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:52 pm

I personally can't stand it when people take tapes or vinyls and convert them straight to their computers. OF COURSE THE QUALITY WILL SUCK THAT WAY!!

I run my tape player through my Rane mixer where I'm able to tweak the levels to make everything sound good and then I record straight to CD cuz I have a TDK CD Recorder. From there, I then upload the CD to my Computer in 320 or 256 quality. I do conversions the same way with vinyl when I convert them to mp3's for people. Levels ALWAYS need to be tweaked!

Architek · Post by **Architek** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:22 pm

skater4041 wrote:I'd like to hear if anyone has any tips on this as well. I'm trying to use a portable cassette player to audacity using an RCA cable and I don't really like the quality that much.

Oh yeah, the tape is the World Renown promo tape dated 08/15/94

Congrats on the auction result.
I wouldn't expect much from a portable player, especially one with no line-out if that's the case.

I'm all for RCA, i think USB creates a sterile sound which feels unnatural, but maybe that's just me.

djfilthyrich · Post by **djfilthyrich** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:31 pm

I also have heard bad things about the quality of USB decks, but have never owned one myself to compare to my analog deck.

From my personal experience, I would say the best method is to go with a good quality analog deck. Clean the heads as Odnet mentioned above. Also, analog decks should have Dolby noise reduction (Dolby B at the least, and some like mine also have Dolby C). Sometimes using it will make the tape sound better (which you'll have to decide using your ear). I generally find Dolby noise reduction helps.

I use an RCA-to-RCA cord directly into my soundcard (M-Audio 2496), or you could use an RCA to 35mm adapter (make sure it's a stereo 35mm jack) if your soundcard doesn't have RCA inputs. Having a decent soundcard is also fairly important. If you're using the generic onboard sound of your computer, then I'd recommend upgrading that as well.

Once you record the tape into a .WAV file into Audacity, then you can EQ it from there. I personally use Sony Soundforge as my audio editor, and it has a pretty good function where you can sample the hiss, and the program makes a digital profile of it. Then, you can use the hiss profile to clean the track of those frequencies. Depending on the quality of your source (a high signal-to-noise ratio is ideal), it may do it cleanly. If there is too much hiss, then you'll hear digital artifacts, like the 'tinkering' sound you mentioned originally, in which case you should just record the tape as-is. There are also tools and plugins in the audio editor to enhance the stereo image, and other tweaks.

By using the method I've mentioned above, your digital recording of your tape should sound pretty much the same as if you were going to play the tape through your stereo, if not better. Hope that helps. If you have any other questions, just lemme know....

ZiekeFons · Post by **ZiekeFons** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:24 pm

WiCkEd22 wrote:I do conversions the same way with vinyl when I convert them to mp3's for people. Levels ALWAYS need to be tweaked!

That's the biggest bullshit I've ever heard

WiCkEd22 · Post by **WiCkEd22** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:09 pm

ZiekeFons wrote:
WiCkEd22 wrote:I do conversions the same way with vinyl when I convert them to mp3's for people. Levels ALWAYS need to be tweaked!
That's the biggest bullshit I've ever heard

How so? I like ALL vinyls that I convert to be around the same volume level and everything cuz all that shit is important to me. Some vinyls are pressed lower and a variety of other things could need to be tweaked.

bad-cop · Post by **bad-cop** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:42 am

Thanks for all your input, analogue seems to be the way forward as I suspected. Will go on a hunt for a decent deck.

@Wicked, converting vinyl is a very different process which is a lot more straight forward. That is completed via my technics 1210s / TT56 and serato which has this as an built in function...

BC

WiCkEd22 · Post by **WiCkEd22** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:24 am

bad-cop wrote:@Wicked, converting vinyl is a very different process which is a lot more straight forward. That is completed via my technics 1210s / TT56 and serato which has this as an built in function...

It's not really any different for me with the way I have my shit set up. *shrugs*

step one · Post by **step one** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:55 pm

All my tapes are ripped in the same way Wicked mentioned. Definitely helps to be able to run it through a mixer of some sort as alot of old tapes can be too bassy or tinny so its good to be able to mess around with that a bit. Its rare that I dont have to do something to the levels before I start recording it into my laptop (and my rips are usually on point!)

If anyone wants anything MP3'd you can send it to me. I'm in the UK though.

diggy64 · Post by **diggy64** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:47 am

Whether you adjust the input volume in Audacity or the channel volume on your mixer you are achieving the same thing. Maximizing volume without clipping should be a primary objective when ripping from any source (vinyl, tape, radio, speak-and-spell) as post-production normalization will result in some loss of clarity. Individual opinion on what is acceptable in this regard (as well as source material quality) varies greatly. As a rule of thumb, maximizing both should be the goal. Loss-less wav and FLAC tend to be good archiving file formats, whereas mp3 continues to be the mainstay for playback (with quality ranging from 96k to 320k). Since the inception of inexpensive storage hardware, the decision of quality versus size has become minimalized and having the best quality reproduction of the original source is an ongoing challenge. Respect to all the diggers, but respect to all the rippers too.

WiCkEd22 · Post by **WiCkEd22** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:06 am

diggy64 wrote:Whether you adjust the input volume in Audacity or the channel volume on your mixer you are achieving the same thing.

Br0, my thing is that I do NOT want to have to use some stupid computer program to edit anything. When I convert my tapes and vinyls, I get it right from the start so when I upload the file to my computer its already perfect. I think having to use computer programs is lame! Same way I think using computer programs to make beats is lame and the same way I think using a computer program to DJ is lame. Just because computer programs make things easier and more convenient doesn't mean it makes them better and I don't know about you guys, but quality is #1 to me and I could care less about convenience. Just sayin...

I do use Audacity to edit radio show files (to maybe fade in and/or out) and what not, but for me that's different because it's a broadcast...

step one · Post by **step one** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:02 am

WiCkEd22 wrote:I think using computer programs to make beats is lame...

um, you do realise all beats are made using computer programmes?

I used Audacity briefly but really didnt like it (i might have been using an older version though). I use Adobe Audition and I cant really fault it.

Sigma · Post by **Sigma** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:47 am

When I rip, assuming I have a good source (an original tape, or a clean vinyl record) I want the rip to be transparent, so I don't mess with the EQs. I keep them flat. I set the recording level so it's peaking close to 0dB, but without clipping. If the volume is too low, you can boost it a bit afterwards. If it's clipping and distorted though, you need to start over, so it's best to keep it below 0dB. I record in Adobe Audition.

Once the tape is recorded, I chop the dead space off each end (use fade in/fade out on the very beginning/end of the "silence" if you're getting a slight pop due to tape hiss) and then export to WAV, then I convert to FLAC.

Using a good quality tape deck with clean, properly adjusted heads and a decent source tape makes a big difference. The reason I go for transparent rips is because I want it to sound exactly like I'm playing the original tape. Unless you're knowledgeable about mastering then I think it's best to go for that approach, because I've downloaded vinyl/tape rips that sound like dog shit simply because someone's fucked with the EQs or tried to "master" the final recording, when they're using shitty equipment to begin with, don't have the best ears, and don't really know what they're doing.

There's nothing inherently bad about USB as it has more than enough bandwidth for very high quality recording, but the main issue with those "USB to PC" products is the low quality of the actual tape player or turntable part.

djfilthyrich · Post by **djfilthyrich** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:41 pm

The straight to computer method is better than going through a mixer, because by using a mixer you are:
1) introducing another element to the signal path (the mixer), which slightly deteriorates the signal
2) EQ-ing it using a limited 3-band (in most cases) mixer EQ
3) not able to get the 100% volume level out of the recording (you'll either come close to 100% or go slightly over causing distortion).
when recording straight from tape deck to PC, you can adjust the recording levels in the audio editing program you are using. i usually try and record it to just under 100% so that i see no red bars (aka 'clipping'), then after the recording is done, I 'normalize' the track, which brings it to 100% of the max volume ( 0 dB). Then i cut the silence from the beginning and end of my recording.

The computer method is better not only because it is easier, but because you are reducing the signal path, and you have more tools to work with to enhance/master the audio (e.g. Stereo spatializers, noise/hiss reduction, 20-band EQ). Sigma is right, rips should be recorded flat. If you know how to master audio, then you can try and play around with it. If you don't know what you're doing, you're better off just leaving the recording as-is.

Again...the quality of your soundcard is key. Do not use the on-board sound that came with your computer. For anybody who's into music, a decent soundcard is a worthwhile investment because not only will your recordings sound better, your playback will sound better too.

WiCkEd22 · Post by **WiCkEd22** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:39 pm

Yo Filthy, you say all that, but why do my tape & vinyl rips sound better then 90% of all the other tape & vinyl rips out there??? Just sayin...

All I know is that I don't like having to use Computer Programs for all this shit. And you say using the Computer is easier, but how is that so? When I upload a song to my Computer, I do not have anything that needs to be done other then making sure the files properties are all titled properly and have correct information. *shrugs*

djfilthyrich · Post by **djfilthyrich** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:31 pm

WiCkEd22 wrote:Yo Filthy, you say all that, but why do my tape & vinyl rips sound better then 90% of all the other tape & vinyl rips out there??? Just sayin...

All I know is that I don't like having to use Computer Programs for all this shit. And you say using the Computer is easier, but how is that so? When I upload a song to my Computer, I do not have anything that needs to be done other then making sure the files properties are all titled properly and have correct information. *shrugs*

Whatup Wicked. The sound of your tape rips have nothing to do with the fact that you are going thru your mixer to CD (for vinyl you have to go thru a mixer or an amplifier, as record players only output at 'phono level', which is much lower than 'line level'). You can't compare your tape rips to what is out there, because you don't know what their source cassette sounded like in the first place, or what methods/equipment they are using. You likely just have good source material to work with, which is why your rips sound good. I can guarantee that your tape rips would sound better if you went straight from the cassette deck to your computer (provided you have a good soundcard).
(I'm an audio engineer by trade)

To answer your other question, the computer is easier.
Your recording process is as follows:
1) record tape to CD.
2) put CD in comp
3) rip track to comp using audio ripping program

By recording straight to your comp, the process is:
1) record tape to Comp.
2) select all and hit the 'Normalize' button

So the computer method saves you the step of recording to another medium, plus it saves you the cost of the blank CD media.
Plus, there's the fact that I mentioned earlier about maximizing 100% of the volume using the computer method.
Not saying that your method is terrible by any means....it should still come out sounding good. If you're currently doing it that way and you're happy with the sound quality, then by all means keep doing what you're doing. I'm just outlining the facts of why the computer method is slightly better.

Architek · Post by **Architek** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:15 am

^ not to mention the fact that if you wanna split the tracks you can do it right through the recording software. Otherwise you'll have to do it using the ripped CD files (isn't the CD reader an extra factor?) and re-encode them to save the split new ones - decreasing the audio quality even more.

WiCkEd22 wrote: Just because computer programs make things easier and more convenient doesn't mean it makes them better

WiCkEd22 wrote: And you say using the Computer is easier, but how is that so?

^I think the two of you have a lot to talk about.

jamo609 · Post by **jamo609** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:45 pm

Guys, what does the "normalization" process do to the wav file compared to it being left the way it is?

ZiekeFons · Post by **ZiekeFons** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:26 pm

The highest volumepeak of the track will be brought to a "ceiling".. which you can control to different dB's like -2 or 00..
So basicly it will get the loudest volume possible without clipping and getting distorted..

vincentlopez · Post by **vincentlopez** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:04 am

I used Spin it Again to convert a lot of my old tapes to mp3. The program is free to try. I just popped the tapes in the tape deck, connected the jack to my laptop, hit play, and hit record on the laptop. It also allows you to edit the recording and adjust the volume level before you save it to your hard drive. After converting a few tapes, uninstall and reinstall the program to do it again.

http://www.acoustica.com/spinitagain/index.htm

HeRBaN LyRiX · Post by **HeRBaN LyRiX** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:45 pm

^Yup, I use the same program. It`s pretty simply & easy to use. Actually I`ve posted up the crack for the program in another thread in this forum...

1

fatboybrandon · Post by **fatboybrandon** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:24 pm

step one wrote:Definitely helps to be able to run it through a mixer of some sort as alot of old tapes can be too bassy or tinny so its good to be able to mess around with that a bit.

I agree. I've had some tapes that are too thin sounding but none too bassy yet. I also use my recording software to edit sound quality, I find Ableton and Pro Tools the most comfortable at the moment. I've got a Yahama MG12/4 board connected to my tape deck and amp also with a mBox running from that into my G5.

bad-cop · Post by **bad-cop** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:43 am

UPDATE: I bought an decent 2nd hand Sony TC TX373 tape deck off eBay and the rip quality is light years ahead of the USB one I have.

I use Audacity to rip which is ok. I don't like the hiss removal feature so will have a go at Soundforge again to tidy up unwanted noise.

Conclusion, go the analogue route and spend time fiddling with recording levels etc.

BC

diggy64 · Post by **diggy64** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:37 am

Good to hear. Thanks for the follow-up BC. Glad everything worked out.

serch4beatz · Post by **serch4beatz** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:36 pm

i used to rip tapes using my now sadly dead pioneer ct900s tapedeck hooked up to my ttm56 with the EQ's off, the mixer hooked up to my roland cakewalk ua25ex with 2xXLR @24bit/96khz (i know tape cant really achieve more than 20khz but i was too lazy to switch the recording mode on the back of the soundcard), and using adobe audition cs6 to record. Then converting it down to 16bit/44.1khz for portable FLAC use..i always watched that the input wasnt over -1db tho and adjusted the levels of the channel after recording (again without going over -1db)

Converting Tapes to MP3: Input needed

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